Neil Gaiman www.NeilgaimanBoard.com www.NeilgaimanBoard.com The World's End FLAME WARS I question the "Flame Wars" concept
www.NeilgaimanBoard.com www.NeilgaimanBoard.com The World's End FLAME WARS I question the "Flame Wars" concept|
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his colours are like your dream Member  |
Huh? It wouldn't have been a useful response if that was what i said. but it isn't. I didn't say leave, i said avoid. if you'd quoted the rest of my post, that would be clear. Let me repeat it here. "you could quite happily stay here at the board and never read, or contribute, to a flame wars thread. And some do. some of our most prolific posters never post here" you were questioning the FLAME WARS concept, not the concept of the board, or a paradigm for life in general. I was suggesting that if it upsets you, you needn't click on flame wars, and just enjoy the rich life of the rest of the board has to offer. How exactly is that suggesting that you leave the board, or indeed anything, if it upsets you? please don't twist my words. My response was about the thread title. wierd and unusual for me, i know, but it does happen. Flame wars is a place were the bad blood gets diverted, and is easily avoidable. So i maintain my response was emminently sensible and helpful. This message has been edited. Last edited by: Mischief the enigmatic Polarbear, ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Hyperbole is, without a shadow of doubt, the single greatest thing in the universe! |
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has no member title Member  |
Oh - sorry for being unclear.
I meant not leave the whole board, I meant leave the Flame Wars. My position is that I think venting is good and the Flame Wars in principle are also a good idea. You see me posting here often enough. (Then there was a second issue involved about why Dweller supports the Flame Wars if he does not agree with the usefulness of venting. But this issue has cleared itself up.) What I don't agree on is the anything goes concept. Now, this response to Ronin:
No. I think venting is possible without this sort of personal attack. I cannot remember a single time where calling somebody an arsehole to their face had any positive effect beyond the immediate gratification of your own mood. And yes, I have called people an arsehole before. It happens. Sometimes, if you don't care what happens afterwards, if you never have to meet the person again, then yeah, WTF. But I think that allowing this sort of thing to happen poisons the mood of a place. I think it lowers the level of respect we have for each other in general and it lowers the barriers we have that keep us from becoming arseholes ourselves. I don't necessarily think the mods should come down with an iron fist and smite the loose of tongue, mind you. Because if there is a tendency here in this forum to see this sort of personal attack as a harmless and necessary part of venting, then the forum should reflect it. Then there should be a place to call people arseholes. I don't think there should be. But, just to make this clear, I am not demanding or asking you people to accomodate me. I was disturbed by this concept and wanted to see what the general opinion on this is, to what the rest of you think of it. I also would like to know what you think of THIS post of mine, that is hopefully more clearly explained than the ones before were. Regards, onions __ The brickchewing, camera flaunting restroom saint formerly known as Babylon the Bride |
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needs a blanket very badly. The better to "yahr" you. Member  |
well, i suppose i'm biased.
see, i've known most of these people for far too long to let anything said in Flame Wars affect my respect for them. I sometime enter in conflict with IRL friends, and sometimes someone gets hurt. it's perfectly normal human interaction, i don't see why it should be any different on the internet. i'm sorry if this will make you respect any of us any less, but as i already stated before, shit happens. "If you are going to get anywhere in life you have to read a lot of books." Roald Dahl Have you fed your adorable, lovable and huggable lost girl lately? I obey the Alaura High Priestess in the Alaurian Movement      Add people, develop industrialization or improve transport at Alindaville! |
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has no member title Member |
I guess we just have different expectations of others then. I'll keep that in mind. And no, I won't respect you less. But I'll be very careful to avoid any situation in which I am likely to be "arseholed" myself.
 Thanks, Alinda. __ The brickchewing, camera flaunting restroom saint formerly known as Babylon the Bride |
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is in perfect karmic alignment Member  |
*Chuckles*
You know MrsO, i once got upset at some of the rudeness in Flame Wars. Dweller, very gently, pointed out to me that since the boardies are usually such cool, mature and generally nice people, it seems doubly horrid to see them being nasty. As this forum is (compared to some others) reasonably free-spirited, there's bound to be some black-humour, content, and what have you. If you see the issue from the other side of the scale, you could argue that it's a tribute to this forum that the Flame Wars are mostly used for that kind of thing, instead of the usual flaming, trolling, swearing, etc.... ~You are a *Taverner*. Sometimes patrons want to go where everybody knows their names, though it helps when half of them are named John. When people want to celebrate, or commiserate, they gather to your establishment. You provide the atmosphere, the warmth, rum, and even an ear to bend. Did I mention the rum? Years before the language will be mangled with terms like facilitator and networking and interpersonal communication, you've overseen it all, and broken up a few bar fights, to boot.~ -Royko |
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has no member title Member |
You could, I suppose, Punkyfins.
But I cannot wrap my mind around the concept that insulting people to their face is a normal part of human interaction. I know it happens, but in my book it should be avoided. I'm just not built that way. I recognise that other people see this differently. __ The brickchewing, camera flaunting restroom saint formerly known as Babylon the Bride |
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is in perfect karmic alignment Member |
'Course it should be avoided.
In my personal opinion, however, that has little to do with 'flame wars' and a lot to do with people who don't think of the consequences of their own behaviour. I've read the other thread, and my interpretation of CH's comment was that he was actually honestly p'd off at Del's generelisation. It was just the way he said it, that people took offense at. Ofcourse it ended in an 'i'm sooo clever' repoirtee, that wasn't very elegant, and had little to do with the tread. To come back to my first point: i meet lots of people every day who just can't see the consequences of their own actions or behaviour. They're trying to be 'clever' and succeed in being pricks. Some people shoot their mouths off, in the heat of the moment and have to apologise afterwards, because they didn't think beforehand. (and don't think i'm talking solely about Del either... I'm just as bad) What people say and post, illicits reactions from others. Posters/people then are shocked they've gotten that reaction. And ofcourse you can say: "well, you twat, you asked for it, didn't you?" but they'll never see it. People usually (imo) try to be coarse or insulting. They're trying to be clever. ~You are a *Taverner*. Sometimes patrons want to go where everybody knows their names, though it helps when half of them are named John. When people want to celebrate, or commiserate, they gather to your establishment. You provide the atmosphere, the warmth, rum, and even an ear to bend. Did I mention the rum? Years before the language will be mangled with terms like facilitator and networking and interpersonal communication, you've overseen it all, and broken up a few bar fights, to boot.~ -Royko |
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mutant hedgehog worm Member  |
Onions i believe that it completely depends on the person
see to me i highly value honesty, if someone is being an arsehole i would much prefer to call it to their face. Of course i have tempered this talent of mine so much that i won't say it to their face if they are the sort of person that i know is going to go curl up in their bed and ball their eyes out over something i have said. I like to think i can judge who is that type or not, but just to be sure i very rarely get nasty , but tend to be fairly polite about it. See i do this in real life too, i have certain people in my extended friend groups that seriously drive me up the wall, i consider them hypocritical bitches, and i know that i have other mates that agree with me, but they are happy to just "pretend" to be friends with them, to keep the peace. I will never be the sort of person to do that. I am too blunt/honest. sometimes someone needs to know what their faults are. If you are going to be a jerk you need to be called on it. of course, i would never find that just saying "you are an arsehole/bastard/wanker" is very productive.  |
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has no member title Member |
I value honesty too, Hal. So thank you for yours.
In fact, several people also on this forum have given me quite startled feedback on my "directness". So far, I've managed to deliver directness - also of the negative sort - without the aid of insults. I don't think the two are inextricably interlinked. But maybe a discussion of that would go too far. That said, I understand what you're saying and I admire you for not compromising your value system. This message has been edited. Last edited by: His Noodle Girl, __ The brickchewing, camera flaunting restroom saint formerly known as Babylon the Bride |
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war, death, necro ducks Member  |
I would in the main part agree with what Halucinagenia said when it comes to being bluntly honest but we are using a medium that is not terribly accurate when it comes to the expression of feelings or intent and there is so much we don`t know about one another that I for one now tend to be far more hesitant about contributing to certain threads than I would once have been.
Hence my absence from the `board love` for Del`s friend Donna after the unpleasantry with CH started. It`s just so easy to miscontrue another person`s meaning around here and for a guy like me, the very public nature of any comments can itself cause offense. I`ve always had a limited stockpile of criticism I could take at a time before becoming beseiged and resentful but what always pushed me over the edge was knowing that everyone else could see what was being said. Nothing stings like *public* humiliation and we all want to save face if we can, so I would suggest using PMs to resolve differences rather than compounding problems by airing dirty laundry in public. Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live. ~ Oscar Wilde Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? ~ Thomas Jefferson |
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is in perfect karmic alignment Member |
Amen bro! ~You are a *Taverner*. Sometimes patrons want to go where everybody knows their names, though it helps when half of them are named John. When people want to celebrate, or commiserate, they gather to your establishment. You provide the atmosphere, the warmth, rum, and even an ear to bend. Did I mention the rum? Years before the language will be mangled with terms like facilitator and networking and interpersonal communication, you've overseen it all, and broken up a few bar fights, to boot.~ -Royko |
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has no member title Member |
Missed that one. If we provide a place where "So what, it's the Flame Wars" anytime someone feels insulted, then it IS a matter of the Flame Wars and which concept stands behind it. Yes, everybody has their own conscience to please, but there's also such a thing as a collective consensus about which things the board will accommodate and which it doesn't. At the moment it accommodates. Everything. Not attacking what you said, just pointing out what I mean. __ The brickchewing, camera flaunting restroom saint formerly known as Babylon the Bride |
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is in perfect karmic alignment Member |
Well, i'm not so sure about that, really. What Miho said is perfectly true, it *is* public. That means that if you're being a prick in flame-wars, some people will remember that. Like a kind of social-control thing. That means you're going to have to watch your step in WE as well. At least it sometimes does. And i'm not sure about accomodating everything. You *will* get told off publicly and severely if you overstep the mark. The only thing is, the thread will not be deleted, like it might be in WE. ~You are a *Taverner*. Sometimes patrons want to go where everybody knows their names, though it helps when half of them are named John. When people want to celebrate, or commiserate, they gather to your establishment. You provide the atmosphere, the warmth, rum, and even an ear to bend. Did I mention the rum? Years before the language will be mangled with terms like facilitator and networking and interpersonal communication, you've overseen it all, and broken up a few bar fights, to boot.~ -Royko |
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is in perfect karmic alignment Member |
P.S. Threads seldomly get deleted (sorry mods) but sometimes they're closed if they get too... well... nasty.
~You are a *Taverner*. Sometimes patrons want to go where everybody knows their names, though it helps when half of them are named John. When people want to celebrate, or commiserate, they gather to your establishment. You provide the atmosphere, the warmth, rum, and even an ear to bend. Did I mention the rum? Years before the language will be mangled with terms like facilitator and networking and interpersonal communication, you've overseen it all, and broken up a few bar fights, to boot.~ -Royko |
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needs a blanket very badly. The better to "yahr" you. Member |
precisely. if you border off way too much in Flame Wars, mods aren't blind. they'll take note of what character you are and you'll have to watch your step once you're in WE cause you can get booted out at light speed. that said, i personally am not a fan of insulting people with swear words, but if it happens it happens. lack of politeness is a flaw, but honestly, humans are flawed so i don't make too much of a fuss around that
"If you are going to get anywhere in life you have to read a lot of books." Roald Dahl Have you fed your adorable, lovable and huggable lost girl lately? I obey the Alaura High Priestess in the Alaurian Movement Add people, develop industrialization or improve transport at Alindaville! |
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war, death, necro ducks Member |
I`ve never been a big fan of Flame Wars as an idea anyhow. In my estimation it`s falling between the twin stools of what should be a civil public discourse and the sincere honesty that can only truly take place between friends in private.
Moreover introducing the `work safe` aspect to it encourages people to troll and pander to the lowest common denominator in taste. What many forget is that what happens in FW is not left there, but is carried over elsewhere simply because people are people and don`t forget a slight. There are a few I no longer converse with on account of ill-chosen posts I made here. Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live. ~ Oscar Wilde Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? ~ Thomas Jefferson |
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is in perfect karmic alignment Member |
I'm not sure i agree with you, Miho/Tim-Tams....
The flame-wars are useful, funny, touching, and sometimes, rude. People on forums react in different ways. Some react like the nastier type of tourists, in another city far from home. They go berserko... Not very elegant, but there it is. Some people react as if FW is a platform to vent your displeasure on posters, situations, remarks etc. And most of the posters (thankfully) merely use it as a place for funny, touching, erotic stuff that's simply not safe for work. Some threads fall in between those two chairs. Some of them were moved from WE to FW purely because of language/content. Some are spiteful. If posters use that fact, to try and be 'oh so clever' and succeed in being rude and hurful, i really feel that's up to them. The excuse "yeah, but this is flame-wars" only means that the thread won't get closed. It doesn't mean you're not being a stubborn twat. ~You are a *Taverner*. Sometimes patrons want to go where everybody knows their names, though it helps when half of them are named John. When people want to celebrate, or commiserate, they gather to your establishment. You provide the atmosphere, the warmth, rum, and even an ear to bend. Did I mention the rum? Years before the language will be mangled with terms like facilitator and networking and interpersonal communication, you've overseen it all, and broken up a few bar fights, to boot.~ -Royko |
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war, death, necro ducks Member |
I think it`s a case of `give a dog a bad name` when it comes to Flame Wars. By implying there`s something `sinful` about certain themes and lumping them in together with the kind of random venting you`ve described it does sound as if we`re going for censorship by association, as the reputation for mudslinging must deter somefrom posting.. i.e that frank talk about sex is distasteful and anti-social. I`d be much happier if we could discuss fellatio or cunnilingus in WE without being tarred as being `dirty minded`.
Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live. ~ Oscar Wilde Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? ~ Thomas Jefferson |
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is in perfect karmic alignment Member |
There is a lot to be said about that, but we've had that discussion before.
Some of our posters, can't come and visit us from work, 'cause workplaces have a different view than most individuals would. Because we want them to be able to visit us here, we have to -sometimes- be realistic about what workplaces think about "The Internet" and/or sexual content. You may be right in that it doesn't actually belong with the "flames" or with the "wars", it's just a concession the board makes, towards posters we love, and want to continue talking to. Then, there are people who don't like/condone graphic descriptions of intercourse, or even erotica. They can keep out of the Flame Wars, if it hurts their feelings/is against their principles. Posters have their own individual value-systems opinions and quirks. A public forum has to try to make it easy on everyone, as far as possible. People misbehaving sometimes just goes with the territory... ~You are a *Taverner*. Sometimes patrons want to go where everybody knows their names, though it helps when half of them are named John. When people want to celebrate, or commiserate, they gather to your establishment. You provide the atmosphere, the warmth, rum, and even an ear to bend. Did I mention the rum? Years before the language will be mangled with terms like facilitator and networking and interpersonal communication, you've overseen it all, and broken up a few bar fights, to boot.~ -Royko |
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