quote:

Organic - noting or pertaining to a class of chemical compounds that formerly comprised only those existing in or derived from plants or animals

The definition of the word before people started using it to describe growing foods in a more natural way.

Now when you say that the food that you're buying in a supermarket is "not organic" you're saying that your food is not made of carbon based!!

Want to know something? That computer keyboard that you're typing on right now is organic! That gasoline in your car is organic!

Gah, it's so anoying....

personally, i prefer cybernetic produce.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Ass Panda:
Gah, it's so anoying....

Panda, word usage changes all the time - as long as we all understand what is intended, what's the problem?

because people are using a word terribly wrong to imply something that is horribly false!

you're going to make a great grumpy old man, panda.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Ass Panda:

quote:

Organic - noting or pertaining to a class of chemical compounds that formerly comprised only those existing in or derived from plants or animals

The definition of the word before people started using it to describe growing foods in a more natural way.

Actually, the earliest attributed definition of "organic" is "Of, relating to, or derived from living organisms," followed closely by "Of, relating to, or affecting a bodily organ."

quote:

Now when you say that the food that you're buying in a supermarket is "not organic" you're saying that your food is not made of carbon based!!

"Not organic" doesn't necessarily mean "not carbon based," just as your definition implies. If someone said that food that wasn't organically grown is "inorganic," it'd be another story, of course.

And, technically, food can be inorganically grown. One of the definitions of "organic" is, "A substance, especially a fertilizer or pesticide, of animal or vegetable origin," a definition that dates to before the Second World War. That's the "organic/inorganic" component of "organic food."

That an adjective refers to the process by which its subject was created and not to the subject itself may be confusing, but that's not language's problem.

quote:

Want to know something? That computer keyboard that you're typing on right now is organic! That gasoline in your car is organic!

No and no, respectively, at least by the definition you've provided. While both products are made from things found in nature, the natural compounds have been altered radically from their original structure.

They do meet the chemical definition of "organic," "Of or designating carbon compounds," but that's not what you said.

Oil is derived from dead plant and animal matter. Plastic is derived from oil!

Yes, but the term "organic" doesn't refer to the origin of a thing, but to the nature of the compounds that make it up, in your definition, "a class of chemical compounds that formerly comprised only those existing in or derived from plants or animals."

The compounds of petroleum have been drastically altered in the creation of plastic; it's no longer the kind of organic you're talking about. It IS carbon-based, and I think that's what you're talking about, but it's not what you said.

Either way. It still is

quote:

derived from plants or animals

No matter how much processing occurs.

Although you are correct that I really was refering to the more chemical terminology, and should have used that definition from the start.

quote:

An organic compound is any member of a large class of chemical compounds whose molecules contain carbon and hydrogen

And then later on:

quote:

A few of the compound classes based on the functional groups they carry are as follows:

Acid anhydrides
Acyl halides
Alcohols
Aldehydes
Alkanes
Alkenes
Alkynes
Amides
Amines
Aromatics
Azo compounds
Carboxylic acids
Esters
Ethers
Haloalkanes
Imines
Ketones
Nitriles
Nitro compounds
Organometallic compounds
Phenols
Polymers, including all plastics
Thiols

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_compound

I gather you're bitching about the use of the word to describe market food?

Well, for food the word "organic" describes the process of how it's grown and the fact that the farmers have pledged to not use nasty and potentially harmful pesticides. In many cases they're not using hybridized seeds either. Other cases involve not treating cows with bovine growth hormones or letting their chickens and pigs run "free range".

Yes, it may have been pimped out and bent and corrupted into a new meaning, but such is the English language! Old words do new things.

Quite frankly, I believe that in many cases it's been tacked on just to up the price a buck or two, which is why I like to go to Farmers Markets in the Summer.

quote:

Originally posted by Hive:
word usage changes all the time

Word meanings shift constantly. Languages evolve. There's nothing to be done about it, but to observe and record.

You're right, Count, but in this case, the use of the word did NOT change. When referring to organic food, it's used appropriately and in context with Panda's very first definition. There are organic chemicals used to promote plant growth. There are inorganic chemicals used for the same purpose. The former are derived from plants or animals. The latter are not. Organic farming is farming that predominantly uses organic chemicals, in accordance with FDA regulations.

Now, the real problem is that food manufacturers are permitted to refer to foods as "organic" when, in my opinion, they shouldn't be able to, usually because too many of the chemicals used in their production were inorganic, because the inorganic chemicals used are particularly egregious or because the organic chemicals should not be classified as organic.

It's nothing to do with saying that your food isn't carbon-based. This isn't a decision made by people, but by a bureaucracy.

To me, "naturally" grown would be a much more accurate definition.

By calling a set of foods "organic" you're implying that other all other foods are inorganic, which of course they are not. It is all a ploy to make people freak out that their food is not organic, OMG!!!

Language usage changes all the time, but I will still be offended when words are used in such ignorance!

Anouther word that I am offended by is the word ghetto. Although that is because I associate the word with its historical definition of what was going on in Europe and feel that using it to describe modern voluntary racial groupings is very wrong.

Well, "naturally grown" implies that other foods are "unnaturally grown," which is a meaningless phrase. You haven't improved the phrase at all and I'd argue you've made it considerably less precise. Your lack of understanding of what "organic" means in this context is not a failure of language, it is a failure of your understanding and will not be extirpated by a change in vocabulary.

What is it about the use of the word "ghetto" that offends you?

Dweller: Did you just use the word "extirpate" in general conversation? You're my Hero of the Week. And i'm not being sarcastic. We have a game with friends, that we play, which involves getting "good" words into every-day conversations. You've beaten me with "extirpate"

Yep. And I even used it because I know that it comes from the Latin for "to uproot," thinking that at least the Count might find it funny.

quote:

Originally posted by Dweller in Darkness:
Well, "naturally grown" implies that other foods are "unnaturally grown," which is a meaningless phrase. You haven't improved the phrase at all and I'd argue you've made it considerably less precise. Your lack of understanding of what "organic" means in this context is not a failure of language, it is a failure of your understanding and will not be extirpated by a change in vocabulary.

What is it about the use of the word "ghetto" that offends you?

Umm, I understand what the word Organic means. Whether I agree with its usage or not is the key here.

You've interposed at least four different definitions of the word by this point, Panda. You may know some definitions of the word, but if you post grumpily that a word is "misused" when 30 seconds of Googling and a college dictionary would've shown you that "organic farming" is completely in keeping with at least one of the common definitions of the word, I can't agree that you understand how the word is used.

quote:

Originally posted by Dweller in Darkness:
Yep. And I even used it because I know that it comes from the Latin for "to uproot," thinking that at least the Count might find it funny.

As indeed I did, thank you

Good! I love etymology-based puns.