link to story:
http://www.comicon.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=13&t=000714

Ahh, if only it had never had to come to this.

Reading all of the legal mumbo-jumbo just reminded me that lawyers have to take a class which trains them in the very fine art of gobbledegook writing and speaking, otherwise known as legal-ease.

I find it a bit off putting to read some of the comments by the fanboys, many of whom will apparently only be happy if Mcfarlane ends up homeless, living on the street eating our of garbage cans and slowly dying of AIDS.

So much for Neil's fans being compassionate and all that.

It's not as if Neil was losing truckloads of income because of what Mcfarlane did/was doing.

And I just love the fact that there are what, 5 lawyers working on this thing for Neil?

Let's see, I think the average charge per hour for a lawyer is around $350, so that's gonna be a pretty hefty bill coming due for someone.

They could have solved this very easily and much less expensively by going to Judge Joe Brown or Mills Lane or Judge Judy.

quote:

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Originally posted by PainTaster:
I find it a bit off putting to read some of the comments by the fanboys, many of whom will apparently only be happy if Mcfarlane ends up homeless, living on the street eating our of garbage cans and slowly dying of AIDS.

So much for Neil's fans being compassionate and all that.

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We ARE compassionate, but McFarlane is one motherfucker who deserves to be tortured to death. . . SLOWLY!

(hmmm. . . guess we aren't compassionate, then)

quote:

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Originally posted by PainTaster:

It's not as if Neil was losing truckloads of income because of what Mcfarlane did/was doing.

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According to some sources Gaiman decided to go ALL the way this summer when he realized how much people still love Miracleman, and how badly the fans want to see it finished.

He's partly doing it for us.

quote:

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Originally posted by PainTaster:

Let's see, I think the average charge per hour for a lawyer is around $350, so that's gonna be a pretty hefty bill coming due for someone.

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He's writing a mini-series for Marvel to pay the bills.


[This message has been edited by mtxx (edited 01-25-2002).]

quote:

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Originally posted by mtxx:
He's writing a mini-series for Marvel to pay the bills.

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Actually, one of the "requests" Neil asked for was that McFalane pay for both Neil's legal fees and the Marvels companies legal fees, as well as associated costs.

I wonder if associated costs includes the doughnuts the lawyers order every morning?

Registered on this board strictly to say: good luck, Mr. Gaiman, and I hope you're victorious.

I'm glad this thing is finally going to be over! Now I can find out what I've been missing by actually being able to read Miracleman.

I've tried to be neutral about this (I love Neil's writing and love Todd's toys) but I have to say I hope Neil wins this. I don't believe Todd since he has seemed to bring back Miracleman in HIS own comic without asking anyone. Its obvious that he also got rid of Angela because of this.

quote:

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Originally posted by PainTaster:
I find it a bit off putting to read some of the comments by the fanboys, many of whom will apparently only be happy if Mcfarlane ends up homeless, living on the street eating our of garbage cans and slowly dying of AIDS.

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No, I'm sure he'll die in his big mansion, alone and unloved. A terrible sense of loss will fill him as he remembers his youth, when he still believed in idealistic concepts such as "creators rights". And as an unsold Little Nicky action figure falls from his hand, he'll whisper his last word: "Kimota".

*gazes fondly at his Yellow Sub and anime figures* I somehow feel like they have to go... but i can't part with them!

Well, Todd is a slimebag, and I won't buy any of this stuff until this is over. Or not. Anyone, I hope Neil wins. And I hope Todd is exposed as a hypocrite. And it would be cool if the mainstream trash media covered this.

the (gossip collums=funny) floyd

Few comments/questions:

*Did Neil work on Spawn #26, or was it just an Angela/Medieval Spawn appearance?

*Asking for the other party to pay for legal bills &associated costs is pretty common. Afterall, it's a bill that was caused bcause of the other partie's failure to uphold their contract.

*Should I assume "Marvels and Mircles Inc" is a company name for the Miracle (aka Marvel) man creators banding together, or is it something that deals with other issues as well?

*Neil's fans... some are compassionate, some aren't. Don't we have a thread about Neil fan stereotypes going on? We are a mixed bunch. Thre are always a few sour apples in the bunch *bites tongue at obvious example*

*Lost income, although a factor, isn't the only factor. There's also creator rights (as he says), and putting Todd in line so he doesn't neglect other contracts. He has a track record which suggests he thinks he can get away with anything. (Tony Twist & the Klan members named John and Peter to name two other examples. Look up older threads for more examples).
And, if a MiracleMan series had started... well, the income from a popular monthly comic is enough for someone to live off of (proof: the small press people who strive to live off their art doing a single title). So even if it was about money (something I don't believe), it is worth more than a few pennies

*LON: There is no need to get rid of your figures. The money is spent, and it was spent when you didn't know the acts about Todd's business methods, so feel no guilt. If you feel the need to do something, stop buying more, and maybe tell your friends the facts of what's going on. (I did my best to alert my friends of DeCarlo's dealings with Archie back when Josie & the Pussycats was in theaters)

The odd thing is that I really don't want to stop. They're such easy thing to get, and my friends love them. I'm obviously not throwing out my figures-- that would disrespect other people more than it would respect Neil.
This is a business matter, but I am pissed at Todd. Not only is he an asshole, he's also a hypocrite. And i'm just tired.

the (tired) floyd

*about to show how clueless she is*

Can anyone give me the rundown of what happened in condensed form?

^^

~Karyn

It's ok, you have to pick the pieces up from many various places anyway.
*deep breath*
It started with Marvelman, an old (1950's) British ripoff of Captain Marvel. In the 1980's, Alan Moore brought the characer back in the pages of Warrior. The rights were split in thirds between Alan, Gary Leach & Dez Skinn. When artist leach left, his third went to the new artist, Alan Davis.

Marvel then sued about the use of the word "Marvel" (must stay on track and not do side stories...). Reprocussions included a falling out between Moore & Davis, and Marvelman ceasing (unfinished).

When Marvelman came to America to be published, they found a home at Eclipse. Eclipse bought Dez's share, and Davis/Leach's share, giving them 2/3 rights. Alan kept his 1/3. To avoid another legal action from Marvel, they changed the name to Miracleman.

Eclipse began by reprinting he Warrior stories, then continued with new material until Moore finished his tale at #16. He then handed his 1/3 to Neil Gaiman and (artist) Mark Buckingham (this is documented). After a few years though, Eclipse went bankrupt, and Neil never finished his tale. MM ended at #24 (Neil planned to write to #34) even though #25 was fully written and drawn (the art was returned to the creators since they weren't paid for it).

Eclipse was bought by Todd McFarlane, who ended up with both the films for the issues of MM and Eclipse's 2/3 of the rights.

Meanwhile, Todd & Neil had a dispute over Neil's work on the Spawn characters. Neil created some characters, including Angela & Mideval Spawn, which he considered his. Todd continued using the characters without permission. There was a settlement agreement (may 1997) involving trading the rights to the Spawn related characters and all unpaid fees for the rights and films for Miracleman. Todd sent over the films but there seems to be a lack of documentation for the settlement. (Neil in May 2001: "...he gave me his share of the rights in exchange for all my share in the Cogliostro character in 1997 (as he said, in writing at the time -- although he never delivered any of the promised papers confirming this, only sent the film, and, he told me, all the Miracleman art in the files"). Todd seems to think this didn't happen, and has said that the films were destroyed/lost. Meanwhile, they amazingly exist in Neil's basement.

Then Todd annonced he was going to have MM in Hellspawn #13, without consulting Neil at all (who has at least 1/3, more if the above deal can be proven true, of MM).

Here is part of an interview from http://www.comicbookresources.com/features/mcfarlane1/ to show some of Todd's feelings:
"
MIRACLEMAN

MDT: The rights to Miracleman seem to be a source of controversy that pops up now and again. It's coming back to the forefront. What kind of rights do you have to the Miracleman character?

TM: Ultimately? I've got all of them. We'll find that one out.

MDT: You own the rights to the character, lock, stock and barrel?

TM: Until someone proves otherwise.

MDT: The only reason I ask is that Neil Gaiman has cited as a partial owner. But as far as you're concerned, you've got all of that?

TM: Someone may very well prove that wrong, but I'm willing to prove the point. If somebody else thinks that they have control of this, then do something about it. Because I'll be right there on you, right now. Then we will solve this problem.

MDT: Is it something where it's been so murky, you want to get into a courtroom and get it over with, if someone really wants to litigate it?

TM: Nobody wants to litigate anything. It's a matter of people moving on with life, making a call as to what's a priority. If somebody feels as strong about Miracleman as I do, then I invite them to take as hard a stance as I will. If somebody steps that way, then we'll let somebody else decide which of us is right. Maybe neither of us will be. Maybe we'll both partially will be. Who knows? Until any of that happens, then I take the position that I own Miracleman. He was sitting there in the auction. He was a part of the auction we bought and I picked it upÂ…

MDT: Have you heard from Neil Gaiman or his representatives?

TM: Yeah.

MDT: And have they said anything in particular about threatening litigation?

TM: Let's just say that we don't see eye-to-eye?

MDT: Is Miracleman going to be showing up in Hellspawn?

TM: Yes.

MDT: Well, there it is.
"

Another comment from Todd was related in Neil's Dec. 14th blog entry:
..."conversation a couple of nights ago with Joe Quesada, Editor in Chief of Marvel. “Todd McFarlane says to tell you that on this Miracleman stuff, he’ll take it all the way. He’ll take it to the mat,” he said. “He told me to tell you, though, that if you could sort it all out by just getting in a room with him, man to man, and hammering out an agreement. And he made me promise to say that, if Neil keeps up, Todd’s going to go public with all the dirt on Neil he can find, and Neil’s fans won’t like him any more.”

And the last lingering shreds of respect I had for McFarlane just went away, like that.

IÂ’d been feeling almost sorry for him recently; his comics donÂ’t sell; his toys are no longer selling, his company has been imploding, his long-time trusted employees have left or are leaving, and are polite in public but honest in private about why they left; even his baseballs are worth less and less.

And I decided to stop feeling sorry for him, at that point, too.

I’ve no desire at all to get into a room with McFarlane and sort it out “man to man”, only because I did that once already, in May 1997. We came to an agreement, then we put it in writing, over my share of the stuff I’d created for him, and within three months he’d quietly started to renege on every part of the deal (although it took me a while to discover that). Why would another “man to man” deal be any different?

But seeing that offers are being made...

Hey Todd, if youÂ’re reading this, this is what IÂ’d say if we did get into that room...

1) You agree to abide by the May 1997 agreement. (ItÂ’s the one where you agreed IÂ’d have your share of Miracleman, in exchange for my future shares of everything from Cogliostro and Medieval Spawn. Remember?)

2) You pay all sums of money due under that agreement, after you pay for an independent audit, so we know all the numbers are right.

3) You pay all legal expenses IÂ’ve incurred so far trying to get this sorted out.

4) You make a public apology (in writing is fine. Online, or in the pages of the CBG or Wizard.)

5) You make a hefty donation to the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund. (A few years ago, IÂ’dÂ’ve said a million, maybe half a million. These days itÂ’s not clear that youÂ’ve still got that kind of money, so itÂ’s negotiable. But a serious donation nonetheless.)"

Neil will "be doing a 6 issue miniseries for Marvel next year; Marvel are kicking in all their profits to help clarify the status of Miracleman" (blog oct 24)

And now, it seems the court drama is finally about to start...

Information and qoutes from: Kimota (the MM companion), Comics Journal #237, The Well, Neil's Blog, comicbookresources.com

If you want to dig up some old discussions, we've had threads about this almost since the start of the board (subject #44 "Boycott Spawn" which began in June)

sorry if it wasn't condensed, but it's a complex issue. I didn't even bring up the questions of if Alan Moore had th rights to it to begin with, or the differences in British and American cpyright law....

Hey thanks for clearing that up GM. It's still a bit hazy but I get the jist of it.

I don't care what "dirt" McFarlane comes up ...as long as Neil continues to write as well as he does I'll continue to buy.

~Karyn

It's not just you - it's all hazy. I mean, I've been discussing it on the board since June and I still needed to look up all the facts to explain it to you. So little has been published about it, and most of that is vague in certain areas...

-GMZoe
If you have specific questions tho, I'll do my best to look up/explain the answers

I think it's a shame that it came to this, but I guess there was really no other choice.

But it does worry me. This has a potential to be quite messy for everyone involved, and that bothers me.

Strangely enough, though, my copy-editor friend ran the AP write up of it in the paper, so she got to include a picture of Neil. Sad that this is what it took.

McFarlane certainly showed us how a little guy gets to be the litigious jerk with the simple addition of money.

Neil deserves to win this one big. And the fans deserve it, too. It would be great to see MM 25 as well as new HC collections of the pervious material.

Do you think threatening legal action the way Toddster does could be considered terrorism? (Ok, I'm not serious, here)

All right. Let's see what happens. My money is on Neil and co.