So we all know dream is an anthropromorphic personification of the act of dreaming and that over the course of the series he changes from being one point of view to another point of view. Given the time period that sandman references, and assuming that humanity influences the overall personalities of the Endless, what change does Dream's death represent in our history?

the neo-Silver Age comics of Grant Morrison/Kurt Busiek are personified by the new shiner Dream, replacing the older, darker frank miller Batman represented by the old Dream? i dunno

Wow. What a great question. *ponders*

I guess I'd take it at literal, face-value. There's a New Dream. It's not about what Dream the personification has to offer, but instead what people themselves actively dream about, in the verb sense -- not the noun sense.

My answer is that Dream has shifted from a noun to a verb. With the rest of Daniel's story untold, it's up to the reader (humanity) to actively create the story. Likewise, it's no longer enough to have a static picture of what you want in your mind, but one must take action to obtain it.

The old Dream reacted to situations. I suppose his death represents the fact that the new active, verb Dream must be pro-active.

quote:

Originally posted by vaneger:
So we all know dream is an anthropromorphic personification of the act of dreaming and that over the course of the series he changes from being one point of view to another point of view. Given the time period that sandman references, and assuming that humanity influences the overall personalities of the Endless, what change does Dream's death represent in our history?

Thing is, the time period of The Sandman is the present. Ok you can take it that it covers a period from 1988 to 1995 but that was the time frame in which it was written, it's time period is still present as opposed to past or future. With the historical bits, these range from the beginning of time to now. And in that time there have been so many significant changes (rennaisance, industrial revolution, so many philosphies) that Dream lived through that it is not really possible to point to a 1988-1995 event that is greater and so precipitates the end of Dream. I'd take humanity and history out of the equation all together. Except for one thing that he wasn't around for (enbubbled as he was). Television. Film. The major medium for telling stories changed from immediate words to recordings (Yes, this is sketchy stuff thrown into the wind). And if you take dreams as stories / stories as dreams then there is that change. And of course the above isn't actually true as people didn't stop telling stories because the t.v was there.

Personally though I take the change of Dream as the end of the story. Daniels emergence is the beginning of a new story, as yet untold. Dreams death is inevitable as the story has to end at sometime, but the end of one story does not destroy the end of all stories. And I don't quite buy Dream being the anthopomorphic personification of the act of dreaming but instead as the idea of dreaming, and a bridge from the state of not dreaming to the state of dreaming.

All rough and unformed. It's a good question but I don't think that there is a definate answer to it. Especially from me, as i've not answered the actual question at all. So to do so how about the 1986 'Crisis On Infinate Earths' series that revamped the whole D.C. universe?

quote:

Originally posted by vaneger:
So we all know dream is an anthropromorphic personification of the act of dreaming and that over the course of the series he changes from being one point of view to another point of view. Given the time period that sandman references, and assuming that humanity influences the overall personalities of the Endless, what change does Dream's death represent in our history?

I don't know that the Endless are a reflection of the human zeitgeist. After all, I'd argue that in the West we fear death more than any other thing, and there are large, multinational organizations dedicated to ending death, or at least starvation, the spread of disease and vectors of death.

And yet Death is a perky goth girl with a quirky collection of hats. Not really a reflection of death, 21st century style.

That said, I do think that Dream had to die, not necessarily to introduce Daniel as Dream, but because the old Dream had changed from what he was into something that he couldn't be. He had learned compassion only Dream couldn't learn, and so he had to die. Kind of cruel, but perfectly natural.

I don't think that Dream's death represents any particular event or chain of events in human existence, just as I doubt that Destruction's retirement from duty, and his rediscovery, represent events in human existence. After all, humans aren't the only critters that dream.

I'm with Dweller on this one. I don't think Morph's demise was intended as anything other then a good way to end the series.

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Originally posted by Dweller in Darkness:
I don't know that the Endless are a reflection of the human zeitgeist. After all, I'd argue that in the West we fear death more than any other thing, and there are large, multinational organizations dedicated to ending death, or at least starvation, the spread of disease and vectors of death.

And yet Death is a perky goth girl with a quirky collection of hats. Not really a reflection of death, 21st century style.

Couldn't it be argued that the perkiness might be a reaction to the, er, human zeitgeist, rather than a reflection of it? An attempt to keep her job not so damn depressing?

But I think that's being discussed in another thread somewhere.....

You could well be right, Amy, but then that would repudiate the idea that the Endless are a reflection of the realities they exploit.

Couldn't it be that over time where they were first a reflection of an idea, they started to get personalities of their own quirks that are entirely of themselves and have little to do with what they represent?
And maybe because that change happened to Morpheus, he became unfit for his job as Dream, and so unfit to be himself and so he 'died'.
And maybe that's why death is who she is?

quote:

Originally posted by Punkyfish:
Couldn't it be that over time where they were first a reflection of an idea, they started to get personalities of their own quirks that are entirely of themselves and have little to do with what they represent?
And maybe because that change happened to Morpheus, he became unfit for his job as Dream, and so unfit to be himself and so he 'died'.
And maybe that's why death is who she is?

That's certainly a plausible theory. It seems fairly clear that when the new Despair was chosen, her siblings thought her better suited to the role. What I've always found discordant is that Dream, who personifies something ultimately chaotic, is so bound by rules, and seems to be by his very nature.

Dream's demise seems to be that in the past, most people dreamed of petty or impossible things, and now more people dream about plausible and actually hopeful things. However, his capture up to his escape go quite well with the rise and fall of the Soviet Union.

As for the the Despairs, the old Despair seemed better to personify hope, such that one single thing still held hope. The new Despair is quite obviously afriad, and in terrible pain.

Death's change seems to be that she is no longer dealing with the death of those with long lives. Instead, the lives she takes are shorter, and she must take them more frequently.

Desire's change to Delirium may be that mortals, humans particularly, have just made the universe a lot crazier.

Oh, and Destruction's abandonment? Total fear of expanding destructive capability by mankind.

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Originally posted by Louis Cypher:
Dream's demise seems to be that in the past, most people dreamed of petty or impossible things, and now more people dream about plausible and actually hopeful things.

Eh? Evidence?

quote:

Death's change seems to be that she is no longer dealing with the death of those with long lives. Instead, the lives she takes are shorter, and she must take them more frequently.

Eh? A lifetime, that's all anyone gets, seems to be her philosophy.

What lives are getting shorter?

I think he meant that during her morose period, there wasn't many mortals around, it was mostly gods, suns and other AP's, all of which existed for a very long time whereas now she's having to collect things like us that usually have less then a century of life. That said, I don't think it has much to do with why Dee's Dee.