Neil Gaiman www.NeilgaimanBoard.com www.NeilgaimanBoard.com Neil's Other Works more Other Works 1602: amusing fiction or satanic revisionism?
www.NeilgaimanBoard.com www.NeilgaimanBoard.com Neil's Other Works more Other Works 1602: amusing fiction or satanic revisionism?Page 1 2
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1602 seemed amusing and well drawn. But it really needs to be established as fiction. It looks like you are going to talk about King Saint James a lot - cast as the probable villain.
Let's remember we couldn't cast GWB as an evil super villain. Why should we do this to poor James VI/I? Albeit - he cannot sue, but we have to think - where are kids gonna get their history from? Point - James is described as hating witches. The history of this is that when he went to Denmark to marry Queen Anne there were violent storms. He was told that witches caused it. So, he persecuted and tortured the North Berwick witches. He wrote a treatise on it - "Demonology", yet his purpose was to not be called demonic himself the main thrust was the witches said he was "Satan's worst enemy on earth". Yet in investigating witchcraft he saw it did not exist and hinted as much in 'Basilikon Doron'. It seems that James believed what was considered witchcraft was what we would today call kinesics and hypnotism. That to ignore it would end it. (Although Satan rises his head in our modern obsession with it). Secondly - James hated all extremists. His mother had been murdered by Puritan Queen Elizabeth. His father murdered by violent nobles in front of his eyes as a five year old. His closest relative - Esme Stuart had been ethnically cleansed from France under Catholic (Jesuit) persecution. In 'Triplici Nodo' James writes to the Pope condeming the extremism of the inquisition - he oft said that "Jesuits were nothing but Puritan Papists". He hated them! He would never be in league amongst them unless his plan was to decieve and destroy them for their Christian Fundamentalism. Yet 1602 implies he would help them! Because he was 'rex pragmaticus' - a pragmatic king and 'rex pacificus' - a peacemaking king. That was his whole point. He lived in a time of extremists and hated them for the violence and discord they brought to everyone. He wanted everyone to just get along. Although he was an absolute monarch that point was just to get stability - he also believed in consensus and not upsetting anyone. 1602 implies he would be a bad king. Sir Nick Fury believes this - which is ridiculous as he was regarded as an incredible king who brought peace and prosperity to Scotland - the British envoys always said this. When in England James was ridiculed for his informality and for his Scottish brogue but that is pure racism - would Sir Nick Fury not know this false? James was also a devoted Christian, who chaired the translation of the King James Bible and writing of the book of common prayer. It seems more than a misnomer to cast Elizabeth as the pragmatic queen; she was a bloodthirsty tyrant who massacred Catholics - unlike what 1602 says. Now is not the time for heresy. Let's not slur Britain's greatest king. A man who stopped blood flowing, who unified our islands at last, who brought reason and understanding to the throne. This is what I hope we will see and not the mindless, untrue, unhistorical hints we have had so far. But - Neil can twist this about - surprise our expectations - this is what I hope. We have enough lies in the world already... Otherwise make it clear that this is not a historical work - call him James X/III, or James 'some-mutant-reworked-name' - like I say; we couldn't talk about GWB setting up torture camps - even if it is true... |
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should only be taken in the dosage prescribed by your physician Member  |
Umm, thanks for the history lesson. I think you can be assured that most of us realize it's fiction.
Oh, and why not make a comic casting Dubya as a villain? I think that would be great fun and not far from the truth. --------- I wish I was the grounds for fifteen million hands upraised and open towards the sky. |
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There is no custom member title here. Member  |
I thought you were going to talk about whether this is revising MU cannon... is it? i know nothing (and care nothing) about real English history...
Excelsior! ~~~~~~~~~ Join the Church of the Risen Morrison! Roy Orbison singing for the lonely Hey thats me and I want you only Don't turn me home again I just can't face myself alone again Bruce Springsteen, "Thunder Road" "To fall in love is to create a religion with a fallible God"-- Jorge Luis Borges http://lon.blogspot.com-- Its a slightly less eloquent me |
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you know, it's frustrating. Americans seem to get their history only from movies. I know 1602 is just Marvel dross; but still...I find it upsetting that an Briton should be distorting our history even more.
Americans are so wealthy, powerful and content. I don't believe that the level of miseducation in America allows many kids to distinguish between truth and fiction. Look at: Black Hawk Down, Saving Private Jessica Lynch - where is truth? - where is fiction? Then - instead of pushing them to learn history 1602 and other fiction just pushes a false notion. and - like that reply stated "uh, thanks for the history lesson" - just dripping sarcasm. But listen - ignorance is NOT cool. It is important to know our past. Would American policy in Iraq be wiser if US citizens remembered the Spanish-American-Cuban-Filipino War? Yes - quite probably. (How - study and find out yourself) Similarly 1602 was a period of calm, the eye of the storm, in a century of violent religious fanaticism and war. There are lessons to be learned, yet if those lessons are butchered by false history...it can cause no good, only ill. At it's best the Marvel Universe serves as a powerful metaphor of prejudice, of angst, of the public and the private face, the difficulties of immigrants and youth... MU should remain an allegory wraped around the truth - a message of hope. It should not set out to distory truth. As for Marvel Universe Cannon...there is really no such thing. Everything changes, there's always a mind wiping, reality changing excuse - that is currently being provided by 'The Draco' storyline. So - that's all gravy with me... Knowledge is a gift. Mindless wealth will only leed to anomie and violent self destruction. America's quest to be supermen will only lead to pain, unless you understand the exploration of the mind. So lets see truth in comics - not lies - lets educate, not distort. Learn what's true and stop obsessing with yourselves, with your emotions. Gotta appreciate. Love. Peace. |
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Lord of the nothings - if you did know English history (beyond understanding the basis of your own society and your elite's mechanisms of control) you would know that James VI of Scotland ascended England's throne as James I in 1603.
So - you could anticipate the storyline of the crisis of succession. The historic coming together of the warring brothers of England and Scotlans >> and the terror as that moment approached, as Queen Bes slowly kicked the bucket >> it's like the USA being taken over by Canada. How aboot that? Scary... |
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should only be taken in the dosage prescribed by your physician Member |
My comment was only half sarcastic. I really did think it was interesting information. And you're right, most Americans are woefully ignorant of the rest of the world. Half of us can't even point to Iraq on a map, let alone know what the Spanish-American war was. I just think the tone of your first post was more hostile than necessary. Most of readers of this forum realize it's fiction and that it's historical details might not be entirely accurate.
--------- I wish I was the grounds for fifteen million hands upraised and open towards the sky. |
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quote: When do you think it is appropriate to use historical names in fiction? And how does changing the character's name alter what is being said about them? Whether we say GWB or BWG is making torture camps, it's still talking about the same person in the end and sending the same message |
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yeah. thanks for the energy you fling at me.
I can appreciate most of the forum users know it is fiction; but the blurring of truth and fiction disturbs me. It's insidious. Like - your kid asks you one day in 10 years time..."James VI, James VI - was he good or bad" "oh yo...I can't remember...but yeah - he was bad, he was in league with torturers, a bad guy definitely" - and you don't even remember why. I just say this so maybe word gets to Neil as well...you know. There is still time to show what an interesting dude the real James was. It's only recently the English lies about James were overturned. Yet they come back. As a Jacobite and Stuart decendant I'm against that. I'm anti-defamation wherever it be... Keep it true or keep it fiction. Peace, love, respect... (I promise that's it - I got nothing else to say) [This message was edited by hickster on August 20, 2003 at 06:03 PM.] |
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sorry - I lied, I'm posting again - I said I wouldn't
Yeah - GM Zoe. You got a point. About GWB - he could sue...that's the contemporary difference. Like - 'The Smiler' in Transmetropolitan is Tony Blair; but it flew well beneath his anti-defamation radar. Ultimately; if it's contemporary social commentary we draw out own links if the name a'int real. If it's false we don't establish those links. But - with historical figures, we often just don't know. Fiction can easily be mistaken for fact and distort our minds. I don't like lies sneaking unbid into my mind. Call me an old fashioned Puritan - but I think it's witchcraft.  But I appreciate your point. Reality is a tricky question. If we could all be educated dialectical logicians...but we a'int. Peace, love, respect. |
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knows there is no spoon Member  |
Well, Macbeth is a terrible history, as are most of Shakespeare's historical plays, but I don't see too many people complaining about them . . .
It's ok to have fun with the past and historical figures, Gaiman has certainly done this before, (albeit more with mythological figures than historical ones), and the Fiction and Science Fiction sections of the bookstore is crammed with books, (all of which are not true), that do alternative histories or include historical figures. People go in assuming that they're not true. So, was there really any need for this rant? Someone interested in learning more about history would be looking at the non-fiction section and picking up textbooks, not comics. - James Larger than life is the perfect size |
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I'd just like to point out that Dubya WAS cast as a villain, in Punisher. Castle nearly shoots him, tells him that he's only ever nine millimeters away. LoN knows what I'm talking about, eh? Sly wink?
Lay off, you fiends! I'm only joking! |
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Hickster,
I went back, re-read, specifically with an eye toward what you've brought up here, and I wonder if you're not jumping the gun on the portrayal of James. The only things we hear about him are from the POV of people who would be worried that maybe the rumors and stories they've heard are true; the quote attributed to him may, in fact, be a lie. This may also be taking place before he wrote DEMONIC. Indeed, as I don't know the timeline, it may be very shortly after he persecuted those witches in North Berwick. And the quote may, in fact, be an actual quote. I'm not sure, but I don't expect Neil to not know his British history. The story hasn't really begun, remember, and we may yet find the character of Queen Elizabeth to be exactly the bloodthirsty tyrant you described her as. In all seriousness, though, thanks for pointing this stuff out; I admit a certain lack of knowledge when it comes to British history. If nothing else, you've helped give people a stepping stone to discovering the "truth." {grin} - John Urbancik author of Sins of Blood and Stone and the multimedia SOUND & VISION www.darkfluidity.com |
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may or may not be cerulean Member  |
quote: Sorry, as an American history buff (that is, a history buff who happens to live in the US, not that I'm only interested in American history ^_~) I took note of that comment-- so over in England, all the kids just love history, right? If you stopped some random British guy on the street, they'd know all about James? I think you're being a little sensitive about this. If someone gets all their historical knowledge from a comic book, they have some deep problems. Not saying that it won't happen, just saying that I really don't think too many people are going to have their view f history completely distorted by a comic book. If anything, it might encourage people to learn more about history-- they read vague hints, and realize that they don't know much about it, (By the way, Neil's also distorting American history-- Virginia Dare never went to England, she stayed on Roanoke and disappeared with everybody else. And from the vague hints given in the 1st issue, it sounds like she's got some kinda power or something. Does this mean that kids are going to get her confused with Wonder Woman when they go off to history class?) I guess what I'm trying to say has mostly already been said... but it is fiction. I mean look at "Brave New World"-- Henry Ford is painted as alternately a god or a villain, depending on whose side you're looking at, and I don't know too many people who think of Ford as either one. (Well, maybe a few environmentalists who think of him as a villain.. but... you know.) So I think you've brought up an interesting topic, but I think (like others have said) that you might be overreacting a tad, especially since terribly little about 1602verse James has really been revealed. ------------------------------ ~renata~ Press: Do you plan to record any anti-war songs? John Lennon: All our songs are anti-war. |
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yeah, maybe I did jump on my high horse a little to quickly. It is fiction, it's just fun.
I guess I just wanted everyone to be aware of the distortion of history. Because it is fiction we think, "uh, okay...mutants fake...non-mutant bits...probably real (-ish)". But, also - like I say - Neil is all about twists and turns - so we don't know what will happen. Maybe in '1602' the Jesuits are mistaken; maybe James will con them. But it looks like he is being set up as a bad guy. The only thing I really objected to was Sir Nick Fury being worried about James. After all he is suposed to be an intelligencer, a spy >> so he would know the truth >> so it looks like that will be the truth as perceived by the comic - innit? But Dr. Strange - worried by James - absolutely! And the girl from Virginia - yeah - that Roanoke thing is a mystery >> maybe she was responsible >> the first violent explosion of mutant (witch) powers Anyway...my real purpose in this was to get the rant out of my system so I don't bore my friends. Because, you know - they REALLY don't give a shit. I'm just a little bit obsessive - history and comics being just two areas. Thank you for considering my points. Love, Peace, Respect. Hickster |
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There is no custom member title here. Member |
Er, "Marvel dross"? Excuse me?
And i get most of my historical knowledge from comic books... *shrug* Its paid off well, at least in regards to Sandman. Excelsior! ~~~~~~~~~ Join the Church of the Risen Morrison! Roy Orbison singing for the lonely Hey thats me and I want you only Don't turn me home again I just can't face myself alone again Bruce Springsteen, "Thunder Road" "To fall in love is to create a religion with a fallible God"-- Jorge Luis Borges http://lon.blogspot.com-- Its a slightly less eloquent me |
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may or may not be cerulean Member |
quote: Aaaactually, she's from Roanoke, which is in present-day North Carolina. Her *name* is Virginia. (See, two can play at the historical-nitpick game ^_~) quote: Plus, she was 3 or 4 when the colony disappeared, and most mutant powers manifest during puberty ^_^ (Two can be obsessive, too ^_^) Yeah, and getting history from Sandman-- that's actually helped me out on a few European history tests... *whistles* ------------------------------ ~renata~ Press: Do you plan to record any anti-war songs? John Lennon: All our songs are anti-war. |
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yo. Hey Jupiter. I obsessive cause that just the way I play. I line that last message out to be gracious, make deliberate faults and accept the validity of y'all opinions.It's the nice thing to do. It a'int nice to twist the knife. Once you win and man says "ok, sure" - it just a'int cool to holler and whoop going "we're number one" and start head kicking. Just go - "yeah, cool - thanks - by the way you made mistakes too, but maybe we wern't 100% right either. (lesson for America perhaps? No need to say you number 1 - we know already!)
Back to proper comics/ history speak: I got the chicks name mixed up with her origin -sure - that was sloppy. But: a) she didn't seem 3 or 4 in '1602', and lets not forget - the most powerful mutants develop early innit? Like that Fantastic Four Kid or, uh, that kid in New X-Men, or those Morlock kids Artie and Leech - no? SO: Actually: I win: I got my history from the comic AND - uh - it was wrong and I distorted your history. Then you get all eggy 'bout it..ooh >> was that a sly trick? p'haps...My point is made. History //// Fiction: let's keep it real. Peace. Love. Respect. Hickster |
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may or may not be cerulean Member |
quote: Oh, settle down. You were proving your point, and I was proving mine. And, I did it without using stereotypes ^_~ So, I'm sorry if you took what I said the wrong way. No offense was intended, and I definitely wasn't "twisting the knife." quote: My point was that even you, a self-proclaimed history obsessor can get stuff mixed up, regardless of accurate portrayal (in a comic book or otherwise.) quote: That's because Roanoke disppeared in 1590, which would make her 15 or 16 in 1602 ^_^ And yes, I suppose she could have developed her power at a really early age. (Although you'd think that then she would have learned to control it by 1602, when she seems worried about that.) quote: I wasn't really annoyed, just pointing out that you were doing what you were so worried was going to happen. (And also that it wasn't just British history that was being distorted, because you seemed sort of concerned about the American perspective of this whole thing.) Lots of people get historical events confused, and will regardless of whether they have accurate information or creative fiction about it. Personally (I have this Roanoke fetish, it's one of my favorite historical events) I'm really excited to see where Neil's going with that whole storyline, and I would love to read a Marvelverse explanation for the colony's disappearance. And if someone gets the wrong idea about it from reading a comic book, well, it's their loss. Lastly, I would just like to point out that much of history is a matter of perspective, and from the perspective of a "witchbreed", mutant, or whatever-- James definitely would be evil, because he would want you dead. So when you look at him through that lens, there you go. The important thing is to remember that that's not the only light to see him (or anything) in. ------------------------------ ~renata~ Press: Do you plan to record any anti-war songs? John Lennon: All our songs are anti-war. |
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There is no custom member title here. Member |
Franklin Richards.
Most powerful psionic in the MU. And he's a toddler. that might have something to do with his parentage, though. Excelsior! ~~~~~~~~~ Join the Church of the Risen Morrison! Roy Orbison singing for the lonely Hey thats me and I want you only Don't turn me home again I just can't face myself alone again Bruce Springsteen, "Thunder Road" "To fall in love is to create a religion with a fallible God"-- Jorge Luis Borges http://lon.blogspot.com-- Its a slightly less eloquent me |
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may or may not be cerulean Member |
quote: Ah. Did not know that-- I definitely know more about real history than I do about Marvel history Thanks for the info!(However.. that wasn't my main point. My main point was... oh, I don't even care anymore.) ------------------------------ ~renata~ Press: Do you plan to record any anti-war songs? John Lennon: All our songs are anti-war. |
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