Neil Gaiman www.NeilgaimanBoard.com www.NeilgaimanBoard.com Neil's Other Works more Other Works Super Heroes
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There is no custom member title here. Member  |
Dr. Doom: think of the cleverest person you can. Say, John Constantine. Then make him a mage-- a big, flashy one. And a genius scientist. and ruler of his own country, with all the rights and privlages thereof.
That's Dr. Doom. He got tripped up recently-- he got dragged down to hell thanks to his own arrogance-- but usually, he's so well prepared that the only way Frank could kill him would be a pure miracle. Excelsior! ~~~~~~~~~ Join the Church of the Risen Morrison! Roy Orbison singing for the lonely Hey thats me and I want you only Don't turn me home again I just can't face myself alone again Bruce Springsteen, "Thunder Road" "To fall in love is to create a religion with a fallible God"-- Jorge Luis Borges http://lon.blogspot.com-- Its a slightly less eloquent me |
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His arrogance could be exploited again, or somehow Castle could infiltrate his lair. Anyways, I'm starting to feel like a six year old in a "My daddy could beat up your daddy" argument. It's too hypothetical to be able to talk about. The last point I want to make, before heading for greener pastures is that we're talking about the Marvel Universe here, which could make it go either way. On the one hand, traditional old characters are never allowed to die; their current incarnation sometimes buys it, but if Castle killed Doom, Doom's kid would show up in a similar outfit, or Doom's ghost would come back to life somehow. On the other hand, there's a general trend in Marvel towards good eventually triumphing over evil. So a story about a meeting between the two of them would have to end in some sort of loss for Doom, though not necessarily death.
Relax, you fiends! I'm only joking. |
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There is no custom member title here. Member |
Let me put it this way: I go to a messege board where "hypotheticals" like this are debated under strict rules using established continuity and overruling out of character showings. I'm not usually that obsessive, but I don't know anyone who's argued that Frank could beat Doom without divine intervention.
Excelsior! ~~~~~~~~~ Join the Church of the Risen Morrison! Roy Orbison singing for the lonely Hey thats me and I want you only Don't turn me home again I just can't face myself alone again Bruce Springsteen, "Thunder Road" "To fall in love is to create a religion with a fallible God"-- Jorge Luis Borges http://lon.blogspot.com-- Its a slightly less eloquent me |
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There is no custom member title here. Member |
Also, remember my Constantine analogy? If Castle killed Doom, he'd have contigencys in place to make sure he comes back to life... or, more likely, he'll have just killed a Doombot (think Saddam's body doubles, only robotic and smart).
Excelsior! ~~~~~~~~~ Join the Church of the Risen Morrison! Roy Orbison singing for the lonely Hey thats me and I want you only Don't turn me home again I just can't face myself alone again Bruce Springsteen, "Thunder Road" "To fall in love is to create a religion with a fallible God"-- Jorge Luis Borges http://lon.blogspot.com-- Its a slightly less eloquent me |
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Village Elder Member |
quote: Nope. They (Punisher & Doom) met in Punisher 28-29 during Acts of Vengeance. They didn't kill each other |
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There is no custom member title here. Member |
Ah. I was referring to a situation where Punny was trying to kill them... i know they could meet on neutral ground. Was Acts of Vengence a good story?
Oh, and sorry for that kinda anal post this morning... i feel bad about coming across as a strict geek. Excelsior! ~~~~~~~~~ Join the Church of the Risen Morrison! Roy Orbison singing for the lonely Hey thats me and I want you only Don't turn me home again I just can't face myself alone again Bruce Springsteen, "Thunder Road" "To fall in love is to create a religion with a fallible God"-- Jorge Luis Borges http://lon.blogspot.com-- Its a slightly less eloquent me |
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Hey, at least you're not a manic depressive geek like me. At least we know that you'll always take things seriously. It must be harder to cope with someone who switches between laid-back and anal.
Relax, you fiends! I'm only joking. |
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The Trendy Nihilist Member  |
quote: From what I understand (I havent read it yet) "1602" is solely based on the continuity of the old Marvel comics of the sixties. Back then the two major books were "Fantastic Four" by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby, and "Spiderman" by Stan Lee and Steve Ditko (Later JOhn Romita replaced Steve Ditko.) Other books of the sixties were "Dr. Strange", "The Incredible Hulk", "THe Silver Surfer", "The Mighty Thor", "Daredevil" and "X-Men". Daredevil and X-Men were pretty much considered second league stuff back then, and they lacked an artistic direction back then - those two series only REALLY got popular in the late seventies/early eighties when they were succesfully revived by other writers and artists. "Dr. Strange" and "The Silver Surfer" were the two 'psychedelic' and 'philosophical' (possibly wannabe-philosophical) underground favorites that the university hippies liked. THe Marvel comics of the sixties are reprinted in huge black and white "Essential" collections. They're a bargain at around $14 for each 400 page volume, although the lack of color IS a problem - the art in these books was made to be seen in color. They are obviously somewhat dated today, but the best of them (particularly Lee/Kirby's stunning "Fantastic FOur" run) are true classics of the comic book medium. Stan Lee did most of the writing back then (dialogue writing that is - the artists did much of the plotting.) Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko were considered the two greatest and most artistic illustrators - many of the others were considered somewhat more 'workman-like'    - Michael  [This message was edited by mtxx on August 26, 2003 at 12:01 PM.] |
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The Trendy Nihilist Member |
An EXTREMELY brief history of superhero comics since the sixties:
1960's: - Stan Lee and Jack Kirby succesfully revives the superhero comic book by introducing a new generation of heroes with more realistic "personal problems", so that readers can more easily identify with them. (it's mostly basic soap-operatic stuff, but the fans dont notice.) The greatest artistic achievements of the era are probably the cosmic "Fantastic Four" and the down-to-earth "Spiderman".  1970's: - Stan lee and Jack Kirby are no longer working for Marvel. Other teams continue writing and drawing all their series throughout the decade. Artists like Jim Starlin and Neal Adams contributes 'cosmic' Kirby-like stories for "THe Avengers" and "Captain Marvel" that are fondly remembered today. - The REAL favorites of Neil Gaiman and many other young 70's comic book readers are non-superhero titles like "Conan" (celebrated run by Barry Windsor Smith), "Swamp Thing" by Len Wein and Berni Wrightson and "Howard the Duck" by Steve Gerber. - All through the decade, DC comics belatedly tries to emulate the Marvel formula and update their old series like "Superman", "Batman", "Wonder Woman" and "Green Lantern". Not always succesfully. Many of their series DO seem like bad Marvel rip offs. "Swamp Thing" is an exeption, some fairly dark Batman stories illustrated by Neal Adams is another one.  80's: - A celebrated late seventies X-Men run by Chris Claremont and John Byrne helps make the "X-Men" the most popular comic book in the US. Many monthly spin off titles see the light of the day. New character Wolverine becomes the fan-favorite. (The X-Men movies are a fairly succesful recreation of the best aspects of this period. Stick with the movies - Chris Claremont isn't THAT great a writer, and the comics have dated pretty badly.)  - Frank Miller revives "Daredevil", turning it into a dark masterpiece inspired by film noir, japanese martial arts and old Will Eisner "Spirit" comics from the 50's. It doesn't sell as well as "X-Men", but it DOES become an underground favorite.  - DC Comics headhunts literate British comic book sensation Alan Moore to revive their old cult-favorite "Swamp Thing". - In 1986 Frank Miller releases his outrageously post-modern and apocalyptic Batman masterpiece "The Dark Knight Returns", and Alan Moore releases the even more celebrated "Watchmen", where the superhero genre is re-imagined within the context of a serious literary science fiction (graphic-) novel. For a few months "Comics are no longer for kids" articles can be read in trendy American and British magazines and newspapers. Then it's back to normal.   - "X-Men" superstar artist John Byrne is hired for a LOT of money to 'recreate' and stream-line DC's Superman series for a new generation. many people feel he throws the baby out with the bath water. Late eighties - Alan Moore leaves mainstream comics for some time to concentrate on more personal projects (Among them the ten-year-in-the-making Jack the Ripper masterpiece "From Hell".) DC editor Karen Berger decides that British writers are going to be the saviours of DC. More young British writers are headhunted, among them Grant Morrison and Neil Gaiman. Nineties: - Young American comic book artists like Rob Liefeld and Todd McFarlane tries to create more 'extreme' and gritty superhero comics at Marvel comics, probably partly inspired by Frank Miller and Alan Moore's 80's work. The result is pretty much unreadable to anyone but 13-14 year old boys of limited intelligence. At some point a group of these artists leave Marvel to start their own company, Image Comics. Kids love it - older readers complain that there are frequent spelling mistakes in the books, and that they get head-aches looking at the messy drawings.  - THe industry becomes obsessed with glossy hologram covers and other gimmics, and seemingly stops caring about telling good stories. The books are marketed mainly toward collectors who often dont even read the damn books (it diminishes their value if you take them out of the plastic bags, you see). Some people (Neil Gaiman among them) warns the industry that it's all going to implode. - It implodes in the mid/late nineties. MArvel comics almost files for bankrupsy. Doom sayers spend their time saying that if Marvel goes, then the whole industry will vanish. - The industry survives, and slowly rebuilds itself, more or less. The sales are still only a fraction of what they were in the 70's and 80's. But the industry DOES seem fairly healthy at the moment. - Comic book artist Joe Quesada is made new chief of the comic book division at Marvel. He manages to gain respect of many people in the industry, among them British writers like ALan Moore, Neil Gaiman and Grant Morrison, who'd otherwise not particularly wanted to work for Marvel before. - Michael [This message was edited by mtxx on August 26, 2003 at 01:18 PM.] |
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quote: I must strongly disagree with this point. While I do truly enjoy the films, for me and many other, Claremont's stuff is the X-Men. He wrote very interesting plots, kept everyone in character (including accents and dialectical quirks) more than just about anyone else in the period, and wrote the first comic that ever made me get teary (Days of Future Past). Furthermore, I don't think anyone has topped his work in this period for truly writing a ongoing, monthly book. Much has been written that's better overall, yes, but in pretty much every case the stories were handled in fairly self-contained arcs. There was continuity, but the actual plots tended to have a clear beginning-middle-end-new plot type structure. Claremont did a great job of putting 'real life' progression into the events in much the way Stan Lee put 'real life' emotional issues into the characters themselves. Sometimes a baddie would be vanquished in one issue never to return. Other times, you would only catch a glimpse of him here and there for years. Loose threads abounded and every answer brought with it at least two more questions. I loved that. That's what made the X-Men seem real to me. That's what made them, their lives, and their problems jump off the page and dance, sing, love, live, and hate. I truly consider that stuff manditory reading for any comic fan. Alas, it will probably never be reprinted, for the very reason that it was so cool - very little in the way of arcs. It was so rare to have a clean beginning and ending there arn't really any good places to pinch-of a collected volume unless they decide to print the whole run say 10 at a time or some such. The Dark Phoenix Saga is one of the few bits that is reprinted and you can see in the opening of the book how you don't really have a start, you just sort of pick up where they decided to drop you in. Sorry for the little rant there, but I feel a bit strongly about the X-men, as you may have noticed. They are solely responsible for me being here, as they (and Claremont in particular) both got me into comics as a kid and back into comics as a teenager. Feel in love with them reading them back in the day with a friend of mine. Then one day in the grocery store saw a copy of the latest issue at the time (#251). The cover had wolverine being crucified  . I was stopped dead in my tracks. Flipped it open.. first page showed a table with portraits of each of the members on it, with several crossed out. That was all it took. I literally could not leave the issue there. I started back issues the very next week. Nearly 15 years and more than ten thousand dollars later, here I am.--- jello. aka aron. "That's it buddy! You just lost your brain privileges!" - Plankton |
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There is no custom member title here. Member |
What's your opinion on Morrison's take on it? I've heard mixed things from X-Men fans, and even i'm not sure i like his patented weirdness this time...
Excelsior! ~~~~~~~~~ Join the Church of the Risen Morrison! Roy Orbison singing for the lonely Hey thats me and I want you only Don't turn me home again I just can't face myself alone again Bruce Springsteen, "Thunder Road" "To fall in love is to create a religion with a fallible God"-- Jorge Luis Borges http://lon.blogspot.com-- Its a slightly less eloquent me |
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Member |
quote: To be honest, I havn't read it. I'll probably get around to it one of these years, but shortly after Claremont left the magic of it went as well, imho. The writing teams since them have mucked things up so much even from what little I know the gory details would probably make me physically ill. Add that to the editorial staff revamping the look/feel to make it more like the movies and well... --- jello. aka aron. "That's it buddy! You just lost your brain privileges!" - Plankton |
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Member |
quote: To be honest, I havn't read it. I'll probably get around to it one of these years, but shortly after Claremont left the magic of it went as well, imho. The writing teams since them have mucked things up so much even from what little I know the gory details would probably make me physically ill. Add that to the editorial staff revamping the look/feel to make it more like the movies and well... --- jello. aka aron. "That's it buddy! You just lost your brain privileges!" - Plankton |
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AAAAAHHH!!!TOO...MUCH...INFORMATION!BRAIN...CAN'T...HANDLE...ANY...MORE...NONFICTION...!
Relax, you fiends! I'm only joking. |
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Administrator/Colporteur Member  |
Wow, thanks for the history lesson. You summed it up quite nicely, for a general overview.
~ no snowflake ever falls in the wrong place ~ __________ AJGraeme |
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There is no custom member title here. Member |
By the way, an informal read through the comic racks makes me think the best current Marvel comic is Brian Micheal Bendis' DAREDEVIL. Brutal, cool, interesting with incredible art. Read. Now.
I also love how Marvel has started putting summeries in the inside of their comics, allowing new (or returning readers) to get up to speed on what's been going on. too bad DC dosen't do the same. Excelsior! ~~~~~~~~~ Join the Church of the Risen Morrison! Roy Orbison singing for the lonely Hey thats me and I want you only Don't turn me home again I just can't face myself alone again Bruce Springsteen, "Thunder Road" "To fall in love is to create a religion with a fallible God"-- Jorge Luis Borges http://lon.blogspot.com-- Its a slightly less eloquent me |
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Administrator/Colporteur Member |
The latest Captain Marvel also lets you know there are beautiful naked elves cavorting about your feet, but they'll disappear if you looks at them.
Oh, I told you. Drat. ~ no snowflake ever falls in the wrong place ~ __________ AJGraeme |
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The Trendy Nihilist Member |
quote: I agree. It's great. It almost manages to top Frank Miller's run. And after those annoying 'catholic guilt' stories scripted by Kevin Smith, it's a relief to have a Jewish writer taking over the book and concentrate on some more interesting themes.  - Michael |
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