Yeah we all know heÂ’s a damn fine writer almost all of the time. But there are one or two places where he really has slipped up. I just thought IÂ’d like to get them off my chest so I can go back to adoring him again.

Without doubt, the worst part of Sandman has to be issue 3 or thereabouts where Morpheus goes to Hell for the first time. When that demon challenges him at the gate, Morpheus does some kind of weird kung-fu and throws him across the panel. What?? I know his powers are weak and all that, but physical violence just doesnÂ’t suit him at all!

I would also nominate Sweeper of Dreams as NeilÂ’s worst short story. I just didnÂ’t like the way that it insinuated that the mentally disturbed have only themselves to blame for their predicament. IÂ’m sure Neil didnÂ’t INTEND it to come out that way, but thatÂ’s how it seemed to me.

I, myself, absolutely loved Sweeper of Dreams. As to the bit in Sandman, yes, I do agree that it doesn't seem him, but perhaps he figured that demons would understand physical violence better. When in Hell, do as the hellions do...

If there REALLY has got to be a Neil backlash, it would have be about people who should be old enough to know better wearing sunglasses indoors to look 'cool'.

I really didn't get that out of Sweeper of Dreams. I have to go back and look at Preludes and Nocturens again but I don't remember any kind of "kung fu", I thought he just picked up the demon and rolled him away after the demon was rude to him.

My guess is if there's going to be a backlash it will be because American Gods gets all the awards this year and not because he wrote a bad scene in 1988.

I havent seen a photo of Neil in sunglasses since the back of Good Omens. Does he still waer them?


Kim

OK, it's not a proper backlash (and quite right too, cos Neil doesn't deserve one!). And yes, it was more of a roll than kung-fu in the accepted sense (perhaps it was a judo move of sorts).

But I'm surprised no-one thought Sweeper was rather bad taste - it was the first thing that I thought when I read it.

I think AG is fantastic and deserves all the awards going, but then I haven't read the other nominees.

Hasn't anyone else got any favourite bad bits to add?

[This message has been edited by Worldsend (edited 04-22-2002).]

I didn't like American Gods as much as I should have. I don't remmember much about Stardust except that I didn't like it that much. I've critisized Neverwhere before, though its growing on me.
I think he's worshipped wwwwaaayyyy too much by both the industry and people like me, though Sandman did rock. Being a Neil fan has become almost a cliche, especially around college kids. Not that he dosen't rock, but... i don't know.... i shouldn't be saying anything. Some of his fans (not us) can get annoying...
And yea, I think he is due for some sort of backlash. Everyone is.

the (you knew all this) floyd

I think there was a big Neil backlash in comics in around 1996-1999 just after he stopped doing them. People who hadn't read Sandman explaining why they didn't like it and it was a bad thing for comics. Just exactly like the Watchmen backlash five years before that. These days that's history and Sandman and Watchmen are still there.

I just reread Sweeper of Dreams and can't see why you didn't like it. The story doesn't say that all mentally ill people have offended the Sweeper it just says you offend the Sweeper at your peril.

The only work by Neil that I've read that I have been disapointed with was "Last Temptation". I just could not get into it.

I don´t think you can come down on NG for that kung-fu or whatever move Dream does in P&N, since it was written before the character(s) was established. Right. That´s all.

Hmmm.... it just looks cool how it was drawn... and it really gave the impression of casual power-- physical or otherwise. I don't like how he looks like Harrison Ford in the same issue, though...
But i really don't have any problems with anything in Sandman.

the (seriously) floyd

quote:

---

Originally posted by boi4pele:
I think there was a big Neil backlash in comics in around 1996-1999... People who hadn't read Sandman explaining why ...it was a bad thing for comics. Just exactly like the Watchmen backlash.

---

I don't really follow the comics scene, so I've never heard of either of those. Could you tell me a bit more?

I’ve noticed that a proper backlash never seems to be a response to the work itself, but rather to the excessive publicity surrounding it. There seems to be a bit of a Harry Potter backlash going on, but it didn’t take off until the hype surrounding the movie, with its attendant merchandising, really went into overdrive. Before then everybody seemed to love the books, but now everyone’s saying “well they’re not that good really. Philip Pullman’s much better” etc.

But are they only saying that because thereÂ’s no Northern Lights merchandising out there? In a way I agree with them though. I liked it when Harry Potter was just a series of great books that everyone had read. Now the whole thingÂ’s got rather over-the-top and embarrassing.

I feel sorry for poor old JK Rowling, whoÂ’s now under more pressure to write to perfect book than any other author in history (I should think).

quote:

---

Originally posted by Worldsend:
I don't really follow the comics scene, so I've never heard of either of those. Could you tell me a bit more?

---

Well, with Gaiman (and Alan Moore) there always was a kind of "Oh, it's just dark wannabe-literary nonsense for pseudo-intellectual teenagers. If they want to be so damn pretentious and 'poetic', why don't they go write some REAL novels?". Which they DID, of course.

I think Alan Moore would be happy with a "Watchmen" backlash. He seems sick of all the imitators... as he said "for 10 years, the entire comic industry was riding on my bad mood" or something to that effect.
The problem is that there are lots of silly Sandman fans that make us look bad. Its almost an extreme form of Pokemon Syndrome: something good (the original game) gets over merchendised and sterotyped.
A very extreme version, of course.

the (play it. trust me.) floyd

Actually, the figure Alan cited was fifteen years. His major complaint was that companies like Image had artists trying to write, which they weren't very good at, and they were trying to 'lift riffs' off Watchmen, without any context or legible sense behind them.
He said that pretty much anything successful gets copied in a really shitty way for the next fifteen years. Which, by my reckonings, puts us at the end of 'Watchmen' imitators about now.

I think it cuts both ways, though, in that if you were a writer going up for a new Vertigo ongoing right now, you're still under the shadow of 'Sandman', even now - particularly if you're going for the same audience or a similar subject.
I mean, after 'Watchmen' and 'DKR' pretty much anything was going to look crappy for a few years, wasn't it?

-SLASH-

p.s. you'll note that 'The Matrix' seems to have started a fifteen-year ripple in bringing 'bullet time' to the mainstream. We've got it in bloody sofa adverts now, for fuck's sake.

Magical Truthsaying Bastard Floyd says: It seems like DC/Veritigo keeps trying to milk Sandman, even though its been over for, what, 8 years? When are they going to start milking somethinge else? I'd gladly pay for crappy Spider Jerusalem sunglasses or Preacher t-shirts. I guess they just don't have the "mainstream" (i.e. "lots of people who aren't in the mainstream") appeal Sandman has. 'Tis a pitty, 'cause there are good Vertigo series that are nothing like Sandman, and those are the ones I seem to like. The good ones generally have a higly eccentric creator following their own vision instead of an imitation of a succcessful formula.
Heck, lots of stuff from it has been seeping into the mainstream DCU. There's a friggin angel in the JLA, and i think i've seen at least two TPBs with Doctor Destiny as the main villian.
And now Marvel is copying the Vertigo formula, which can be quite weird, though Ennis/Dillion + Punisher is a good (if bloody) fit.
I don't know. Are there any good Sandman rip-offs/spin-offs? The only thing I lik thats even close in tone is Hellblazer, but that's 'cause its the only one I know about.

the (wants those glasses) floyd

They did bring out the Spidey shades as a piece of merchandise, along with a Transmet wristwatch and a t-shirt with the three-eyed smiley on one side and 'I HATE IT HERE' written on the other.

I'm a big Vertigo junkie myself. Hellblazer, Transmet, Preacher and the Invisibles are all damn cool. They do a mean line in miniseries as well, including Jeph Loeb and Chris Bachalo on 'The Witching Hour', and the two maxi-series 'Outlaw Nation' and 'Deadenders' fairly kicked arse too.
I don't think anything else out there is quite like Sandman, mainly because no-one else can write quite like Neil, and also partly because any series that involves this amount of work in a writer's life tends to be a personal obsession. Hence, Neil wrote about literature, the nature of stories, and epic landscapes of characters and places. Grant Morrison wrote about paranoid conspiracy theories, magic, people who act like James Bond, and lots of stuff from the TV shows he watched as a kid. And Garth Ennis wrote about drinking, fighting, religion, and swearing. Well, he is Irish, after all.

-SLASH-

Oops! Almost forgot - another great Vertigo series was 'Shade, The Changing Man.'

Hey! Watch it you!

Me not being at all paranoid about stereotypes even if they are slightly true....

[This message has been edited by marymac (edited 05-02-2002).]