Hey all,

Just started reading Neverwhere. We in the land of sun, fun and muggings (South Africa) don't really have that much going on in the way of SciFi/ Fantasy/ Comic conventions. In fact, we're a pretty small, tightly interbred bunch here in Durban - I guess you could call us the rednecks of the SciFi/Fantasy literary dimension.

But not to worry, I found the book, (well-priced as well, if you'll believe it), and to get to the point... I hadn't got very far into the book, when I was suddenly reminded of the Whitewolf RP game, Changeling. Not extremely popular in our parts. In fact, I think I'm the only one who has DM'ed a campaign in Durban. Ever. But, I digress...

What I wanted to know, after that bit of background stuff, is if anyone who is familiar with the system (Changeling) and who also read Neverwhere got that impression as well, and if so, was Neil Gaiman influenced by the system when writing the novel, or is it just fluke, or does the story become something else completely, and am I entirely on the wrong track altogether?

Shot for the input, if there is any.

I'm faiirly sure Neil has not read the system as he doesn't have time to read all the regular books he wants to, let alone to read gameplay systems. I don't know when Changling came out, but Neverwhere came out in 1996 based on ideas from as far back as 1990. I do know that the creators at White Wolf are fans of Neil's work as one of the Werewolf game books is dedicated to Neil, so it may've been them inspired by him (again, I don't know the release date)

I thought of Changeling as well, but not because I thought one influenced the other directly. The thought occured to me because:

1. After reading Neverwhere I felt a desire to play Changeling

2. I got the sense that Neverwhere and Changeling were both coming from the same general background pool of fantasy mythology. That is, most of the characters of Neverwhere remind me of our collective Faerie lore. Door, Croup+Vandemar, Marquis de Cabaras, and others all seem like characters out of fairy tale (fairy princess, well spoken victorian goblins, and of course Puss in Boots) Furthermore, both are applying this faerie lore to an urban setting, making the resemblance more striking.

It's related to one of, for me, Neverwhere's greatest strengths and greatest weaknesses. Sometimes Neverwhere feels like a blatant rip-off of conventional fantasy tropes, although admittingly the tropes are put together in an elegant way. On the other hand, it's this fact makes it so especially compelling to me - it taps into my sense of the collective fantasy mythology.

The characters as faeries also has an interesting implication for interpreting the novel, especially in regards to Door. Instead of thinking of Door as a human with superpowers who se life parellels a fairy princess, think of her as not human at all - but as a fairy princess who just happens to look more or less (although note the eyes!) human (two hands, two arms, one head... like Croup and Vandamar...)

I could say more but don't want to give away any spoilers.

quote:

Originally posted by GMZoe:
I'm faiirly sure Neil has not read the system as he doesn't have time to read all the regular books he wants to, let alone to read gameplay systems. I don't know when Changling came out, but Neverwhere came out in 1996 based on ideas from as far back as 1990. I do know that the creators at White Wolf are fans of Neil's work as one of the Werewolf game books is dedicated to Neil, so it may've been them inspired by him (again, I don't know the release date)

Werewolf? Large bits of Changeling: The Dreaming (real subtle subtitle there), Exalted, old and new Mage etc were inspired by his stuff...

My friend is working on a Changeling conversion for New World of Darkness and one of the social groups is basically Neverwhere with the serail numbers left on

If you want a better answer, head down to RPG.net and ask. You'll likely to get an answer directly from one of the original writers.

White Wolf books list 'influences' either in the front or the back of the book and Neil gets listed alot. I thought of more Stardust/Sandman but really when your game is subtitled 'The Dreaming' you ain't fooling anyone

oh and its a setting, not a system

Okay, pardon me, yes, it is a setting, not a system. My mistake, yes.

I'll take a look at the RPG site. Thanks for that.

About conversions, I found the WW system to be rather tedious, especially when playing Changeling. For my next campaign, I'm working on a way to convert it to the D&D 3rd ed. system. Any thoughts on that?

Er... some posters may disagree with me but, IMHO, but converting a game like Changeling to a Class/Level system is the essense of banality.
Pick up something like Unknown Armies or Nobilis if you can find them. Nobilis is basically Sandman: The RPG and Unknown Armies is the best modern occult game ever.

ooh, I loved changeling! Not that I ever played it, I just would buy the boks and read them like they were stories

I never thought of that connection... I suppose there are similarities with Neverwhere, but it's not an obivous conneciton for me.

(Incidentally, the core rule book of Changeling has a dedication to Neil. I think they owe a lot to him, particularly Sandman, for stuff like glamour, the retreating of Faerie from the world after the Middle Ages, etc.)

I thought that Sandman was using some elements of mythology that are very old and that you can find in many other places - like the glamour thing, I don't think Neil invented that. Or the fact that the fairies retired from this world at one point or another. Or the connection between our world and theirs, and how time goes differently and how you should not take anything they offer. All this comes from folklore.

I was already familiar with those last two, but the glamour and the "retirement" (heehee) I had never encountered before. Obviously folk tales do tell you about faeries not being what they seem and how they can alter not just their appereance but the surorundings again, but I'd never heard it as "glamour" anywhere else (if someone has, do tell!).
I remember there's a passing reference in Sandman to the "unseelie court", which I thought was a concept invented by Changeling, and because it's not expanded in Sandman I imagined it was not invented by Neil, but, again, I have no reference to it (and I've devoured quite a bit of folclore in my life).

Hi- I'm new to the board, my name is Adam and I study screenwriting at school in New York.
One thing that struck me about Neverwhere is the absurd sense of humor, it really plays well against the seriousness of Richard's predicament and this is one example of what makes the book very enjoyable. This is probably why Richard doesn't change much by the end of the book , he's the staright man.

I love the humor in Neverwhere. The part that I really found funny was when Richard introduces himself to Door as "Richard. Richard Mayhew. Dick", and she later refers to him as: "Richardrichardmayhewdick".

Of the top of my head, for the "retirement" of fairies from our world, Tolkien kind of makes a reference to it with the whole migration of the elves to some other place and the path closing behind them.

As for the glamour, I know that fairies are supposed to charm people with their beauty and put them in a sort of transe. Then they wake up somewhere else or with something missing. L. K. Hamilton calls it explicitly "glamour" in the princess Meridith series, there's even a mention in the other one about Anita Blake. Though that's not exactly proof it existed before because those books are certainly newer than the Sandman.

hello, was wondering if anyone could help me. Am looking to buy neverwhere on DVD but the only place i can buy it is from america. That makes the DVD a region one, however ive heard that it's a region zero. Can anyone confirm this rumour for me?

quote:

Originally posted by chimeer:
Of the top of my head, for the "retirement" of fairies from our world, Tolkien kind of makes a reference to it with the whole migration of the elves to some other place and the path closing behind them.

And don't forget that in Ireland fairies were sometimes seen being as diminished gods. And as time gods on they keep getting smaller and smaller.

But it's not just Tolkien, a lot of stories about fairies deal with them leaving this world, even the really old ones often mention them leaving.

(sorry, this is an area where I get my geek on).