Listening to election and post election speeches it strikes me how both McCain and Obama made sure to adress national pride - you know, the greatest country in the world and the people who make it great and the pride of being an American and so on. And I was filled with something like envy.

Austrians aren't normally proud to be Austrian. If someone were to go around holding speeches full of pathos about Austria it would be regarded with...suspicion**. I think it's because the country in its current form has only been around for 50 years or so and because we never wanted it. They chopped up the grand old monarchy and all we got was this lousy stubble. Up to 50 years ago people were still saying there's no such thing as an Austrian, we're actually Germans. Our national pride seems to manifest itself only by talking badly about *other* nations, which sounds unhealthy to me. Especially since there's this great unfulfilled yearning to feel proud of something floating around which feeds into particularised xenophobic sentiments.

National pride seems to vary in amount depending on your country. I mean, the French and British seem to be pretty proud of theirs, ditto the Swiss. The Eastern Europeans seem filled with fervour, perhaps because they had to labour so long for it. The Germans and Italians sound more self depreceating (does this have anything to do with the War?).

So I was wondering. Do you feel proud of your nationality?
And what specific things make you proud of being from where you are?


**Posters on an Austrian forum discussing Obama:
A: Once, just once, I want to see an Austrian enthuse the masses like that
B: Yeah, cos that worked out so well last time round...
C: ...and next thing you know we're smack in the middle of a war.

It is difficult to be *proud* of something that i had no control over (i.e. the nationality of my parents).

However, I am always happy to pronounce myself either British or English and will defend both to the hilt.

I am however allowed to slag off my government, because it is mine to slag off and they are bloody corrupt twats.

reasons to be proud:
NHS
&
BBC

I think the difference between British and American patriotism is that it would really not be done to go on about "the greatest country on earth" and so forth, and I cannot imagine any British politician getting away with "God Bless the United Kingdom" in a speech - they would be laughed off the podium.

(Aside: listening to Obama's acceptance speech was the first time I've heard the phrase "God Bless the United States of America" and not wanted to gag or sneer. And gagging and sneering was never an anti-American response, it was a cynical, knee-jerk, vaguely anti-patriotism response shared by many people I know.)

I love my countries - both of 'em! I also love other people's countries, too. I think I'm pleased to be British and Canadian, rather than proud. I think I am proud to be a Londoner, which is a slightly different thing, and with a sort of Ankh-Morporkian vibe about that pride.

Patriotism is a difficult thing because it is hard for 'love of your country' not to become 'my country is the best' then 'everyone else is lesser'.

In the UK it is especially difficult because I think most people, if they are patriotic at all, are patriotic to their individual nation and not to Britain, certainly I have heard a number of Scots even deny that they *are* British. I'm a staunch Unionist so I am proud of Britain (and in fact, when I look at what passes for English culture these days, despair!)

It's also difficult for us because we are undoubtedly less successful now than we have been in the past, so it tends to become a backward looking feeling and there is much less hope for the future. It's interesting that you say your impression is that we *are* patriotic, it doesn't feel that way from inside, and I would have expected that the impression from outside is that what patriotism we do have is of the negative kind.

quote:

Originally posted by Murphy (last sane man in the asylum):
reasons to be proud:
NHS
&
BBC

the BBC are in the governments pocket, i am a lot less proud of the BBC than I once would have been.

quote:

Originally posted by Murphy (last sane man in the asylum):
reasons to be proud:
NHS
&
BBC

Absolutely. And frankly, that'll do.

quote:

National pride seems to vary in amount depending on your country. I mean, the French and British seem to be pretty proud of theirs, ditto the Swiss.

With the Swiss, it's more complicated than that. Less so now, perhaps, but go back five years and most of the (urban, educated) people who'd vote on the left side of the political spectrum would be faintly embarrassed to be Swiss. Perhaps not so much when talking to foreigners, but by and large the Left has relinquished nationalism almost entirely to the Right.

quote:

So I was wondering. Do you feel proud of your nationality?
And what specific things make you proud of being from where you are?

No long answer from me, because I've already bored you with my attitude towards national pride. Namely: I don't really do it, I don't really get it. I appreciate a lot of what Switzerland and England have done and I think they're doing okay well as nations; I also think that they both have an insecure, childish attitude towards the mistakes they committed in the past. I'm not proud to be English because that's an accident of birth, although I like having ties to the country. I'm not proud to be Swiss even though that was an act of will: I simply feel that since I've always lived here, pay my taxes here and am most affected by this country's politics, economics etc., I want to have some say, however little, in where Switzerland is going.

But personal pride? As I said: I don't do it, I don't get it. I can only feel proud of something that I feel I have had a considerable part in.

(And yes, that's the short answer. )

quote:

Originally posted by Psi:
It's also difficult for us because we are undoubtedly less successful now than we have been in the past,

Actually, I think that the loss of Empire is one of the things that Britain has most to be proud about. Not every case, obviously *eyes India* but a lot of them.

quote:

(And yes, that's the short answer. )

Hee!
I was thinking that in Switzerland you have a lot of direct influence on decisions, don't you?

As an individual, no... or rather, it depends what you mean by "you have a lot of direct influence on decisions". In terms of quantity you're right: we get to vote on many more things than people in most country, because we're a Direct Democracy(tm). But in the end my vote is just one of thousands, so I wouldn't consider it as having much of an influence on decisions.

quote:

Originally posted by Hive:
I cannot imagine any British politician getting away with "God Bless the United Kingdom" in a speech - they would be laughed off the podium.
<snip>
(Aside: listening to Obama's acceptance speech was the first time I've heard the phrase "God Bless the United States of America" and not wanted to gag or sneer.)

totally!


Patriotism generally makes my skin crawl, whatever country it's about. I'm surprised you mentioned Britian, Noodles - we can't even decide which combination of countries our nation is, and apart from the odd mug-collecting monarchist, old imperialists and the BNP, I don't know think many people are patriotic.

There's a difference between liking where you live, and 'national pride'. My country is something I have no control over - it's like the other side of the coin where I don't feel guilty about the slave trade - I had no control over either, and where I was born doesn't mean I have an emotional involvement.

(and the BBC are far from in the government's pocket! Both sides accuse them of being in favour of the other, which is what happens when you're ballanced.)

quote:

Originally posted by Hive:

quote:

Originally posted by Psi:
It's also difficult for us because we are undoubtedly less successful now than we have been in the past,

Actually, I think that the loss of Empire is one of the things that Britain has most to be proud about. Not every case, obviously *eyes India* but a lot of them.

'less successful' is not in my opinion exactly synonomous with 'no more Empire'

quote:

Originally posted by Domitella:
I'm surprised you mentioned Britian, Noodles - we can't even decide which combination of countries our nation is, and apart from the odd mug-collecting monarchist, old imperialists and the BNP, I don't know think many people are patriotic.

Hm, I'm still groping for a better idea of national pride, but I didn't mean the British pride of their nation manifests itself the same way as American pride does.
I do get a general sense of Brits being proud of national characteristica, like having a stiff upper lip and being resilient and cheerful through hardship and all that kind of thing. I think that has to do with national pride too.
But I haven't sorted it out in my head, part of why I'm asking.

quote:

Originally posted by Domitella:

(and the BBC are far from in the government's pocket! Both sides accuse them of being in favour of the other, which is what happens when you're ballanced.)

yup, so where were they when the lisbon treaty was signed, which was against everything the government have promised the people would happen.

perhaps it's more that they are pro-europe and do not report on anything that could be seen as anti europe, however, there was something that happened around the hutton enquiry, which i can't quite place, but there was a definate shift in the bbc being willing to go against the government.

and i'm not saying they are in labours pocket, i am saying they are in the governments pocket, that is different.

quote:

Originally posted by Domitella:
... apart from the odd mug-collecting monarchist, old imperialists and the BNP, I don't know think many people are patriotic.

Hey, I don't collect mugs!

National pride. I am proud to be British - we have achieved a lot as a country, and we have endured many things - but I am also sound enough, I like to think, to fully recognise our flaws and where we have majorly ballsed up.

Patriotism to me is being concerned for your country and wanting it to do better, and to care for the welfare of its citizens. A nationalist would be someone who supports the idea of their country blindly and assumes dirty furriners get what they deserve.

I wish more people were the former and not the latter, but I think a lot of people in the UK are very much noncaring about the welfare of their fellow Britons but also continuously riled up about the perceived 'loss' of their 'sovereignty' and the invasion of the country by immigrants and so on.

quote:

yup, so where were they when the lisbon treaty was signed, which was against everything the government have promised the people would happen.

perhaps it's more that they are pro-europe and do not report on anything that could be seen as anti europe, however, there was something that happened around the hutton enquiry, which i can't quite place, but there was a definate shift in the bbc being willing to go against the government.

Maybe because most of the anti-European stuff we hear is already well covered and the BBC didn't feel the need to repeat it.

In any case, the anti-European tripe about Lisbon doesn't deserve reporting.

quote:

Originally posted by D M:

quote:

yup, so where were they when the lisbon treaty was signed, which was against everything the government have promised the people would happen.

perhaps it's more that they are pro-europe and do not report on anything that could be seen as anti europe, however, there was something that happened around the hutton enquiry, which i can't quite place, but there was a definate shift in the bbc being willing to go against the government.

Maybe because most of the anti-European stuff we hear is already well covered and the BBC didn't feel the need to repeat it.

In any case, the anti-European tripe about Lisbon doesn't deserve reporting.

well, that's me convinced

meh, quite truthfully, i am not hiding from a fight, but it is not something i can be bothered to get into and this is not the thread for it.

I have a deep suspicion of anyone or anything peddling patriotism, because, well... Ireland's done so well out of that kind of carry-on, hasn't it?

*does have traditional Northern Irish semi-schizophrenic thing of being better by virtue of not being English, but that's something different*

Passion - any kind of passion - is dangerous. Ultimately, at it's greatest extent, it will burn like fire.

What's often called national pride is really passion for an aspect or all aspects of one's nation and, as such, can burn you.

I like that distinction between being pleased and having pride. I am pleased to be an American. I like living here, especially since I'm technically an immigrant and there are a hell of a lot worse places I could be living given the situations that were going on in the region in which I was born. I'm glad my parents made the decision to come here and become an active part of this country. There's a lot I don't like about America, but for the most part, I'm pleased. I'm not sure if I'm proud.

Then again, it's hard to feel pride in a country in which you feel like an outsider, which I do, despite being a citizen and having been one since I was six. This maybe because I've grown up in the Midwest, but I don't feel like the culture fully recognizes me as an American, so even when I self-identify as such, I feel a distance from it that prevents me from really feeling a whole lot of pride.

However, I was proud of this last presidential election partly because of race. Symbolically, Obama's election expands the idea of what an American ought to look like, the background from which an American out to come. For this reason, I actually do feel like there's more of a place for me now, even if it's just a difference of perception. That makes me really happy.