Neil Gaiman www.NeilgaimanBoard.com www.NeilgaimanBoard.com The World's End The World's End Immigration and illegal immigrants
www.NeilgaimanBoard.com www.NeilgaimanBoard.com The World's End The World's End Immigration and illegal immigrants|
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Goofy Beast Member  |
I've been following a discussion on illegal immigration (starting from the recent shooting in Arizona), and I can't remember all that much discussion of the topic in general on the boards. I'm curious about people's opinions, though.
I'm sure people won't be all that surprised that my take is a pretty left-wing one: I understand for practical reasons that states cannot just open their borders to any- and everyone and that governments try to look after their own population first and foremost. Having said that, though, I understand people who are born and live in a country that is badly off looking at the countries that have more money, jobs, freedom, working infrastructure etc. and who decide that they'd rather give it a go in those countries - and in ethical terms I don't think that I have any more of an inherent right to benefit from being in Switzerland than anyone who was born in a far-off country. (Obviously I pay taxes here, but that's a separate issue and definitely doesn't have anything to do with inherent rights.) I also understand that there's a range of reasons why a person would try to immigrate illegally rather than try to do it the legal way. I definitely don't think that the law in this respect is automatically tied to ethical considerations - someone who decides to immigrate illegally isn't automatically doing anything unethical in my books. What I don't get about the discussion I've been following is the vehemence with which a number of people condemn illegal immigrants, a lack of acknowledgement that where you start is a random thing. But I also acknowledge that I may have a leftie blind spot in this respect. Which is why I am interested in the thoughts and opinions of you guys. What's your take on immigration in general and illegal immigration specifically? Would you say that someone entering the country illegally more or less automatically forfeits their right to benefit from that country's good things? What's your experience with immigration and immigrants? P.S.: For the record, both my parents were/are technically immigrants, though they probably wouldn't refer to themselves as such, being from Germany and England. I became naturalised a few years ago. |
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Dane Cook's Final Horcrux Member |
in the UK at least, immigrants, illegal immigrants (including failed asylum seekers, or those abusing he system) and genuine asylum seekers are all lumped into the same box by the papers and a lot of people. People talk about 'immigrants' and when I point out that many of my friends are immigrants (Canadian, American etc) they of course didn't mean that kind.
Basically here in order to be seen as an immigrant you also have to look different, and/or have a different culture which is visible. So Australians, Kiwis, North Americans etc, and to a slightly lesser extent northern Europeans aren't what people think of, even though there are a LOT here. If you're from Eastern Europe, Africa, Asia, the Middle East or the Indian subcontinent then you're defined as 'immigrant' - often regardless of which country you or even your parents were actually born in. 'Immigrant' has a lot of connotations in the UK, quite apart from it's actual definition. And when people (not all people, but the overall discourse) talk about 'asylum seekers' they very often mean 'illegal immigrants', and the assumption is that asylum seekers are not genuinely fleeing from persecution. This makes it sound terrible - not everyone's a horrible racist here! But if you pick up a paper with an immigration story on the front page, you can bet it's not about the benefit to the economy. ____________________________________________________ tiny ball of rage. hilarious, condensed rage - Snazz I never really lost my virginity... it just sort of eventually wore off - Chris Addison Um... I'm thinking that a lot of my internal conflict and malaise comes from the tension between the life I ACTUALLY want to live, and the stories I'd love to be able to tell? - T-Rex, qwantz.com Rome wasn't built in a day. But I wasn't on that particular job. - Brian Clough |
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Goofy Beast Member |
On the subject of lumping together groups of refugees: when I was a kid, my mum did volunteer work looking after refugees in the village. Back then lots of people would speak of "economic refugees", i.e. people who left their country of origin because they thought they could do better in Switzerland or whatever country they chose to migrate to. Calling someone an "economic refugee" was basically a way of saying that these people were greedy parasites who couldn't be bothered to make a proper effort in their own country.
I can't remember whether I thought much about this at the time, but with 25 years of distance I can't help but get angry when I remember such statements and the implication that person X who was born in Switzerland deserves all the riches that come with being Swiss, whereas person Y should bloody well return to where they came from and it's their own mistake for having been born in one of those countries where things aren't quite as good. |
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The Biscuitkeeper Member  |
There are two big issues with Arizona.
Drugs are fueling a huge portion of the traffic. There are huge expanses of open land that make it easy for drug runners to move pretty freely. Those ranch owners are literally scared for their lives. They won't let their kids play outside for fear of bumping into a group of drug runners. There would be no hesitation to kill if someone "found" them. Secondly, there's a notion that the Mexicans don't want to learn English and become part of society. They want all the advantages of the US, but they want to "ruin our culture." Most of this is total BS, but there's a fear factor that's being pushed. When my great grandparents moved to the US from Poland, they didn't speak English, but they did learn it. They pushed their children that education was very important. My grandmother was the first of her brothers and sisters to finish highschool. My parents were the first to finish college. A lot of people in Arizona aren't seeing that push to learn English and get an education. There's a lot of fear and hate created when you can't communicate with someone. And that just takes time and patience... |
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Sittin' at the dock of the Bayeaux Tapestry Member  |
What Amy said. There's horrendous double-standards here about what an 'immigrant' is, but I think a lot of it is down to ignorance. I know thankfully few people who are unashamedly unbending in their attitude to foreigners.
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Now formally TLOTLOHL Member  |
Man, I *wish* we could use that term for the people who illegally cross the border in the States. At first glance, it appears to be a relatively compassionate understanding of the situation that leads a person to leaving their home country. That seems a lot less xenophobic and condemning than "illegal alien." My take, not surprisingly, is similar to yours, Thirith. The immigration issue in the states is a straw man that politicians use in the name of "saving our jobs" and "keeping our borders safe." Here's what being "tough on immigration" really means: Hi! I'm a politician! I can't find a short-term solution to the job loss in the area and the increase in crime and the impending threat of terrorism (from Mexico...cuz y'know, Mexico is just *filled* with radical Islamic sleeper cells just waiting to sneak through the fence). Since I want to be in the Senate or in the White House in a decade, I think a quick way to show voters that I care about their economic well-being and homeland security is to "protect" them from the brown people who reactionary white people already feel a mild racial distaste for. I'll play on some cultural fears that have already been established, but I'll wave the flag and stand behind legality. I'll come off a hero and get lots of votes and the brown people I'm railing against might not like it, but they have no voice since they aren't citizens. ego forceps ergo ego forceps **** "Chives?"� "Yes, m'lud?"� "Is that Ms Ephemera hovering over the croquet lawn?"� "Indeed m'lud. She's marshalled all the haggle-dans. Missy-twigs and vale-nymphs from Claypole Woods. Apparently she intends to tear this house down and dance on the ruins."� "Well, Chives, you'd better start the car, what? And pack my tennis things too"� --- Joe 3Heads |
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Goofy Beast Member |
If you just look at the word, yes, but I distinctly remember the tone in which it was used, making it sound just a tiny bit better than "parasite". Don't forget, I'm talking about Switzerland, where we're all chocolate and cheese on the surface, but it's money that is our primary industry. They might as well have been calling them "bloodsuckers"... |
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Now formally TLOTLOHL Member |
The language gap has always and will always fuel anti-immigrant sentiment in the US (and I'm sure in other countries). Here in the US, there's a sense of romance about our ancestors' immigration experience versus the immigrants at the center of the modern US immigration controversy. "In the good old days, our fresh-off-the-boat immigrants were eager to assimilate to American culture, so they learned English and made their kids learn English and get an education. Nowadays, these durn Mexicans can't be bothered to learn English and they're too lazy to get an education and WE'VE got to accomodate THEM!" Guess what? It's a fallacy. In the early 20th century (and today), our major urban centers were filled with enclaves of immigrants who don't speak a lick of English. My great-grandparents spoke Yiddish 24/7. They read Yiddish newspapers, sent their kids to Yiddish-speaking schools. They worked in the garment industry with other Yiddish speakers and all business transactions were done in Yiddish. Their kids were forced to learn limited English to help translate for their parents' transactions with the non-Yiddish world. Eventually, their kids' kids went to public school (just like Mexican immigrants' kids do) and became eager to assimilate to the culture not only because they were met with intolerance but also because they were kids and kids are always eager to fit in. So they became fluent in English and in Yiddish, and their kids were English speakers with limited Yiddish, and now there's me, who speaks fluent English and knows a couple of Yiddish terms. There was no alchemy that made my ancestors any better or more eager to assimilate than the old lady who runs the taqueria around the block from me. Chances are, her daughter speaks mostly Spanish and a tiny bit of English and her grand-daughter is fluent in English. Oh, and P.S.---speaking English does not equate to being educated. In Arizona in the 1990's they initiated a bilingual program with Spanish-fluent teachers as an attempt to *educate* kids of Spanish-speaking parents instead of letting them languish in the back of the classroom, struggling to keep up with English speaking students, and getting frustrated and dropping out of school or not even bothering with college. And guess what? The kids started doing just as well, if not better than the English-dominant children. But there was a fallacy that the bilingual education program prevented students from learning English, despite test results showing the long term benefits of a bilingual education, because they often chose to speak Spanish outside of the classroom. They didn't assimilate as fully as our fabled immigrant ancestors did. English-dominant Arizonans felt their "culture" being threatened by this strange new generation of Spanglish-speakers. So voters passed a proposition to only offer English Immersion education. That was in 2000. Arizona touts the English Immersion as a success over bilingual programs, but since there are so few bilingual programs left it's pretty hard to provide legitimate results on the success rate. All I know is that 10 years later, folks are still feeling threatened enough to let a law pass that treats anyone speaking Spanish as a criminal suspect. This message has been edited. Last edited by: Al. Just Al., ego forceps ergo ego forceps **** "Chives?"� "Yes, m'lud?"� "Is that Ms Ephemera hovering over the croquet lawn?"� "Indeed m'lud. She's marshalled all the haggle-dans. Missy-twigs and vale-nymphs from Claypole Woods. Apparently she intends to tear this house down and dance on the ruins."� "Well, Chives, you'd better start the car, what? And pack my tennis things too"� --- Joe 3Heads |
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The Biscuitkeeper Member |
I reread my post and realized my example of my grandparents probably came off wrong. I agree with everything you said Alaura. Please note I used quotations for "ruin our culture". I also said it's a notion that they don't want to learn, but it's mostly BS. It's the perspective of the scared Arizonans, not mine.
My point was the communication breakdown is fueling the hate, fear and ignorance. I'm just keeping an eye out for the Canadian invasion... |
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Dane Cook's Final Horcrux Member |
*nod*
that
and that, and DOUBLE for
Where language can become a problem is when people are only planning to be here (or there, I imagine) for a short time, and in some parts of some communities it's a way that women, intentionally or not, are stopped from being able to be active in society. A catch-22, if you don't go out you don't learn English, if you don't learn English it's scary to go out. There have been some complaints, interestingly, from immigrant groups that whenever they go to a public service of some kind a translator's wheeled out and so they never get to practice their English! ETA, on the education front - the wife of my father's collegue is from Iraq. She is a pharmacist but couldn't practice in the UK because she couldn't pass the English language exams. So she took a pharmacy degree again, in the UK (and therefore English, so eligible) and passed it. Which makes you wonder about the English exams. ____________________________________________________ tiny ball of rage. hilarious, condensed rage - Snazz I never really lost my virginity... it just sort of eventually wore off - Chris Addison Um... I'm thinking that a lot of my internal conflict and malaise comes from the tension between the life I ACTUALLY want to live, and the stories I'd love to be able to tell? - T-Rex, qwantz.com Rome wasn't built in a day. But I wasn't on that particular job. - Brian Clough |
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Now formally TLOTLOHL Member |
I didn't think you were trying to say anything but what you did about the language gap causing fear, Matt-vid. Your example of your grandparents just triggered a rant because similar stories have been used by some jerks as a political tool. ego forceps ergo ego forceps **** "Chives?"� "Yes, m'lud?"� "Is that Ms Ephemera hovering over the croquet lawn?"� "Indeed m'lud. She's marshalled all the haggle-dans. Missy-twigs and vale-nymphs from Claypole Woods. Apparently she intends to tear this house down and dance on the ruins."� "Well, Chives, you'd better start the car, what? And pack my tennis things too"� --- Joe 3Heads |
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Did something right Member  |
My grandmother wasn't just an immigrant; she was an illegal immigrant, thanks to the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882, repealed in 1943 - the only law to target a specific minority group! In fact, Chapter 7 of Title 8 of the United States Code is still headed "Exclusion of Chinese". Yeah! We win!
Of course, thanks to that specific law and the anti-Chinese rhetoric that started around the 1860s, those Chinese immigrants to the US tended to congregate amongst themselves and become insular - resulting in the formation of the Chinatowns that are famous tourist destinations today. The Chinatown of San Francisco (I'm not sure about other Chinatowns) sports a lot of its distinctive Chinese flair because the Chinese living there put them up in an attempt to make the area unattractive to whites - who could, at that time, simply kick the Chinese off the land and take their stuff. The reason a lot of second-generation and later Chinese don't speak great English is because of that persecution that affected the growth of Chinatowns in the 1800s. Anyway. My opinion on immigration. IMHO, the entire immigration system needs a complete overhaul. Want to throw out illegals? Fine with me. BUT. Before you do that, you need to change the system. What do I suggest? Glad you asked! (1) Revamp the system for allowing legal immigration. It takes a ridiculous amount of time to immigrate, and after immigration, actually get citizenship. What's the weight time now? (2) Revamp the system for "temporary" immigration. This assumes that "temporary" work-related immigration benefits both the workers and the US. I can definitely see anti-immigration folks arguing that the US doesn't benefit - but, all arguments aside - if there weren't a need for them, why would they come here? The only reason they would come here is if people were willing to pay them for work. Put in a system that allows it, then see if it still makes economic sense for them to come here. (3) Start over once the revamped systems are in place. Make everyone follow the new systems, and let Arizona have fun chasing around illegals. This, in fact, happened with my own family once the US figured out the whole "illegal" thing (when my dad applied for the military); they pulled my entire family's green cards and citizenship and made them re-apply. No one actually had to leave, but they did have to follow through with the paperwork. No big deal, from their end, at the time. ---------------------------------------------------------- "It really is fun to to stick burning objects into various orifices." "Sorry I haven't been around much, but I am easily distracted by shiny objects." "WEIRD! WEIRDY-WEIRDO-WEIRD! WEIRDOPOTTAMUS WEIRDOSAUR! HIM! YOU! WEIRD!"-Mr. Furious |
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Pirate/Zombie/Hero Member  |
I agree with Chris' changes to the system. I'm not going to vilify people who are doing what they have to to get around a stupid, broken system.
I've had experiences with many illegal immigrant students (or children of illegal immigrants, which is a whole 'nother issue) and while the language barrier can be frustrating it doesn't bother me any more than people who emigrate legally and don't know English yet (and yes, there ARE parents who tell their kids, especially the female ones, "Well, you're 15 now, just drop out of high school," and it does, unfortunately, happen the most in my experience with Spanish-speaking families). I feel bad that they are stuck in a situation where being illegal was the best option, and angry at my country for not fixing a system that is old and outdated and doesn't address the needs of this country. The people who blame immigrants for taking jobs and costing taxpayer money in benefits would be seriously surprised if all the illegal immigrants suddenly disappeared. For starters, food would get a LOT more expensive. |
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Administrator/Colporteur Member  |
I can do you two generations better, Tong - I am an illegal immigrant. Or, rather, I was.
Christy and I intended to get married, then return to Canada and settle down there. Three weeks before the wedding, plans changed and we were going to go to PA instead. We failed to realize that the paperowrk wouldn't just transfer over and when I returned from our honeymoon in Jamaica, it almost ended in extradition. It didn't and I was able to navigate my way to legality, which took almost a year. At any point in there, the people of Arizona would've wanted me kicked out. I did "illegal" work - generally helping friends and relatives with maintenance work in exchange for groceries and gift certificates - and I didn't pay taxes for that year because we were staying at a friend's place. In all my discussions with people about the subject of immigration, no one who opposes illegals has any issues with my story and the fact that I stayed in the country. People who oppose illegal immigration in the manner that results in Arizona's new laws are racists. They aren't closeted, they aren't hiding, they're nakedly bigoted, and people seem to just be too embarrassed to mention this pure and simple fact. I have no problem with making illegal immigrants follow the law - I work with an organization that helps illegal immigrants do exactly that - but illegal immigration can and will happen no matter how airtight the law is, and any sensible person would realize that. __________ AJGraeme "If you took out of the Bible everything about helping the poor, you'd have a perfect box for Rush Limbaugh to hide his drugs." -Al Franken "Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried." - G.K. Chesterton |
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Did something right Member |
Here's the text of the law. As near as I can figure, a worst-case scenario for, well, me, would be I could lose my wallet, get caught jaywalking, and end up in jail.
---------------------------------------------------------- "It really is fun to to stick burning objects into various orifices." "Sorry I haven't been around much, but I am easily distracted by shiny objects." "WEIRD! WEIRDY-WEIRDO-WEIRD! WEIRDOPOTTAMUS WEIRDOSAUR! HIM! YOU! WEIRD!"-Mr. Furious |
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Smartest woman in the world. Member  |
I have a lot to say on this, but most of it will be echoing (at least in part) what others have said.
It's a fallacy, and it's inaccurate even when applied to second and third generation citizens. My grandfather's family spoke German at home, and didn't stop until World War II, when they were worried they'd be mistaken for German sympathizers. That was pretty common in the midwest - I remember my other Grandfather talking about how he took German in high school so he could know what the German kids were saying. None of the people he was talking about were first generation. I'll talk about Spanish heritage in the Southwest in a minute - not all the Spanish speakers are from Mexico, not even in Arizona.
I went to a public school where they had a Spanish bilingual program for a year when I was in the 3rd grade (around 8-9 years old, for non-USA school system folks), when we lived in Taos, New Mexico. That program was used in New Mexico, especially in small towns, because the local Hispanic population still spoke Spanish at home, and had since before New Mexico became a state, a territory, a part of the USA. The Hispanic population was very proud of their heritage, and they preserved their language, and tended to ostrasize people who didn't speak Spanish, or even people who spoke it in a different way (I knew someone from Spain who was made fun of fiercely for speaking Spanish like a gay man). Almost all of them (except the very old folks) spoke English as well, but they cared more about the Spanish. Linguists from Spain come to the small towns in the Northern New Mexico mountains to study the language, because they're still speaking 17th century Spanish, unaltered by time. This is partially because those communities were so isolated, but also because they're, frankly, way more xenophobic than the most racist white New Mexicans. They identified as Spanish, not as Mexican, to the point that land transfers still involved walking the four corners of a piece of property, throwing dirt in the air, and praising the King of Spain until the 1940's (if I remember correctly from property class in Law School, and that professor can be believed). I've heard the term "wetback" used way more often by this group than any other, and many are horribly, deeply offended when someone mistakes them for a Mexican (I say this because I saw it happen repeatedly - I grew up in a tourist town, and coworkers were asked about Mexico by well-meaning tourists all the time). Texas and Arizona have similar Hispanic populations, but from what I understand they were not as isolated and may not have retained their Spanish language heritage to the same extent. My point with the above is that a) not every Spanish speaker crossed the border, the border itself crossed some of them. And b) some Spanish-speakers might be against immigration, because xenophobia (and racism, and stupidity) aren't limited to one color, culture, or language.
This has always been my stance. I've worked in the service industry. I've never seen an illegal immigrant with a job I'd envy, and I've worked with quite a lot of them. Finally:
Those statements are both absolutely correct, and in combination have created a shit-storm of epic proportions. Drug running is a huge problem on the US-Mexico border, the number of killings are astonishing, but the disturbing thing is - we didn't care until the danger crossed our borders. This has been going on for a very long time.
So, yes, drug trafficing is driving a lot of the violence, and that violence is making a lot of people want to move somewhere safe. The USA is considered safe, but the border states freak out that this population is coming here and possibly bringing their problems with them. The whole situation makes me sick, frankly. Most of these issues are driven by the astonishing rate of drug consumption in the United States. But it's the Mexican people and the Mexican immigrants who are bearing the brunt of the consequences, down to our immigration policies. And it's taken an absurd amount of time for anyone to do something about it. But at least there's some hope the governements will continue to act. This message has been edited. Last edited by: Jocelyn, ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Is this thing on? |
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Administrator/Colporteur Member |
[sarcasm]Wait, Jocelyn, you're not saying that the War on Drugs is failing, are you? Why, it's almost as successful as the War on Terror.[/sarcasm]
__________ AJGraeme "If you took out of the Bible everything about helping the poor, you'd have a perfect box for Rush Limbaugh to hide his drugs." -Al Franken "Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried." - G.K. Chesterton |
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is like fusion cuisine, if Canada can be seen as having a cuisine. Member  |
*waves* hi...
As someone in the middle of the immigration process... I started in January 2010. I'm still not legally allowed to work here, and I have no idea when I will get that go-ahead. I probably won't have my green card till 2011. Other than my own experience, I know only one person who has recently immigrated to the USA. It took two years. I live in fear of not getting my green card till 2012. Mrs. TwiliteMinotaur |
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Companion to owls Member  |
Well, interpreters are usually called in automatically, bu the person can choose to speak English anyway and the interpreter will only step in if the person struggles. (ASIDE: And to those that complain about that, try living in any other European country where they won't give you that advantage whether you've been robbed and reporting to the police or are in hospital trying to explain to the doctor all your medical history and allergies so they won't give you something that will kill you in broken Portuguese the doctor has learned on holidays<--True story. [/rant]) Anyways. My views are the same as Thirith's, surprise surprise. I also think on some level people from poorer countries have all the blood right to want to live here -we went to their homelands and colonised them brutally, took their resources, left unstable political systems when we left (if at all) and then kept on exploiting them through trade and tourism while at the same time selling them what great and advanced nations we are. One thing that people keep refusing to see about immigrants is how much we need them. In Spain, they pick our fruit and vegetables, they work in our tourist industry, they clean houses and offices, they take care of elderly people in hospitals or homes... These are all jobs we don't want to do anymore. People complain about immigrants because their kids don't speak Spanish and that has a negative impact at school (there's a huge problem about how classes are targeted towards the majority of kids who can't speak the language so the Spanish kids don't really learn anything), but they just ignore all the other stuff.  |
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Member |
I just had to write an term paper about immigration laws and of course the new law in Arizona got brought up and the issues about whether or not it is constitutional. During my research the thing that really bothered me is finding out the issues detainee's have to face and the lack of legal help they recieve. Over “320,000 immigrants” is detained in facilities each year and some of them have been wrongfully detained (Holland, & Knight, 2009)
Yeah...the USA needs to learn to stop their barbaric witch hunts. |
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Neil Gaiman www.NeilgaimanBoard.com www.NeilgaimanBoard.com The World's End The World's End Immigration and illegal immigrants
www.NeilgaimanBoard.com www.NeilgaimanBoard.com The World's End The World's End Immigration and illegal immigrants© YourCopy 2001