Okay, before I start, I just want to emphasise that this is NOT a request for Christians to justify themselves or their belief in Christianity, nor is it any way an attack on them or on faith in general. This isn't a rhetorical question - I'm really interested in knowing.

Background: kidlet, who is nearly 7, has been having stories from the Old Testament for the very first time, which means that, just so I know what he's learning, I too am reading Bible stories for the first time in, oooh, 30 years.

Now, I'm not a Christian, and cannot ever see myself identifying as one, but I have absolutely no objection to kidlet learning about Christianity and the Bible as part of his cultural furniture. (In the same way, I am happy for him to have a Buddha statue and books on Buddhism - his father and grandfather are Buddhists - even though I have profound theological objections to Buddhism, and I take him to Hindu celebrations - grandma and the rest of the family that side are Hindu and Sikh - even though I don't know enough about Hinduism to know if I have a theological objection to it or not.)

But, but, but... just about every Old Testament story I've read has left me horrified. It's just people on every side, including God, behaving in utterly ghastly ways to one another, again and again and again. I struggle to see what the point of teaching it to children is. I don't know anyone personally who regards it as an accurate historical record (although of course I recognise the huge historical significance on many levels that it does contain). It doesn't contain anything I'd want them to learn from. The only value I can see in it is as narrative. Now, in any other book, not only would that be enough, but narrative would be the whole point, and the question of value wouldn't arise. But I know perfectly well that kidlet isn't being read Bible stories for the entertainment value.

And yet I know that many, many people find great value in reading the Bible, including the Old Testament, and teaching it to their children, well beyond the inherent interest in narrative and cultural baggage.

Might any of the Christians on the board be willing to explain to me a little of what they get out of the Old Testament?

Edit to add: I have just realised that I haven't said why I had asked for Christian viewpoints on this, rather than Jewish or Islamic views (although I'd be very interested in them, too). It's because kidlet is being taught the Bible in a vaguely Christian context, rather than any other, and it's that viewpoint that I'm struggling to understand.

Edited again because I apparently can't spell "emphasise".

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Hive,

I am not christian, but there are some "morality lessions" to be gotten out of the old testiment.. like Job's faith.. granted he was a "test subject" for a bet, but he preservered and was rewarded in the end..

Mostly I think it is a history for the desert religions..

So the end justifies the means, and it's ok to treat someone like shit for a bet as long as you try and make up for it after?

I think it's the morality lessons that leave me utterly bemused. Like even Noah's Ark, where the lesson seems to be that if people don't behave the way you want them to, then you KILL THEM ALL!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Hive,

quote:

Originally posted by Hive:
I think it's the morality lessons that leave me utterly bemused. Like even Noah's Ark, which is so universal it is known well beyond Christianity, where the lesson seems to be that if people don't behave the way you want them to, then you KILL THEM ALL!

The lesson from the story of the flood is that no matter how bleak things seem, and no matter how badly humanity can disappoint you, there is always some good, something worthwhile to be found and preserved in them, the same theme appears later in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, when Abraham pleads for the lives of the, er, Sodomites.

It's complicated, and more often then not lessons on how not to behave, and what the consequences could be (although sometimes the consequences are abysmally stupid, like Korah being swallowed by the earth.) And the old testament God isn't infallible either. But yes, ham-fisted, often horrifying tales. You might want to for interpretations, such as those of Rashi, for added depth.

Yeah, the Old Testament is a tough nut. With careful interpretation of selected stories, the kidlet could perhaps learn something positive from it. But it's very hard to find those. The OT God is certainly an unpleasant, vengeful character. The whole book basically says, "If you don't do as I say, HULK SMASH!". It's a scare story full of gratuitous violence, dodgy morale and sex. The Song of Solomon is actually one of the better parts, though slightly graphic in its descriptions of female anatomy... but its language is more poetic than the whole begetting parts.
Definitely not something I would let a kid read without discussing it with him. Thoroughly.

quote:

Originally posted by FatOigeon:
The lesson from the story of the flood is that no matter how bleak things seem, and no matter how badly humanity can disappoint you, there is always some good, something worthwhile to be found and preserved in them, the same theme appears later in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, when Abraham pleads for the lives of the, er, Sodomites.

It's complicated, and more often then not lessons on how not to behave, and what the consequences could be (although sometimes the consequences are abysmally stupid, like Korah being swallowed by the earth.) And the old testament God isn't infallible either. But yes, ham-fisted, often horrifying tales. You might want to for interpretations, such as those of Rashi, for added depth.

Thanks. I had to google Rashi, so will look for stuff referencing him. (Bear in mind that's I'm at a very early, utterly ignorant, still-horrified stage - at the level of "Huh? Moses did what?"!)

I suppose with the flood story I was focussing on the aspect which seems to emphasise that some people (and in this story, nearly all people) are irredeemable, and so should be written off and killed. I'm not a formal member of any faith, but I'm close to Quakerism (which comes from a Christian tradition, although you don't have to be a Christian to be a Quaker), and this seems just about the most anti-Quakerish concept possible!

Were those Little Golden Bible Stories from the Old Testament? I loved those when I was a kid.

What's the purpose of reading anything really? I don't need a reason. I read as I wilt - that is the whole of my law.

On reading at least.


- Soul

quote:

Originally posted by Soulslack:
What's the purpose of reading anything really? I don't need a reason. I read as I wilt - that is the whole of my law.

On reading at least.

Well, yes, which is why I said that I understood that the Bible isn't primarily read just for the joy of reading a narrative, and it's those other motivations that I'm curious about.

I was brought up absolutely, blissfully free of any real religious teachings, or even mention of 'em. I think this left me with a good, objective viewpoint of religions; from an early age I've been completely puzzled by the inherent conflicts between different religions, and indeed within the same ones, and it's allowed me to make an unbiased analysis of any religious viewpoints I encounter.

However.. the ability to make an unbiased analysis of religions is sort of missing the point of being religious. Faith can be a beautiful thing, and it's something I don't think I'll really experience. I just don't swing that way. I hope that your boy has an experience like the kid at the beginning of Life of Pi, who chooses to believe in every God he encounters because he loves the different rituals, colours, communities, foods, practices, faiths of the different religions.

Yeah, sorry Hive - I totally skimmed that bit. And the bit where you were directing this question at Christians.

Totally my bad.


- Soul

Soul: thanks. I'm interested in non-Christian viewpoints, too, though!

Aisha: about kidlet - I kind of hope so. I've made it clear to him that he doesn't have to choose his path now, and that if he does choose he can change his mind later, and also that Auntie x and Godfather y don't think God exists at all!

I was raised in Protestant Christian traditions, and with all of those stories. We even had the series of "The Bible Story" books at my house, and i loved reading them as much as any other books.

As i got older it occurred to me to ponder what an angry, unforgiving God is portrayed in the Old Testament, who is seemingly contrary to most Christian teachings - above His own laws, so to speak. But as a kid, they didn't seem that way to me. For one thing, they were interesting stories. Giant man-eating whales! Lions! Rawr! And though i can't remember exactly what any adult said to me about them, whether my parents or my Sunday School teachers, i don't believe that when i was a kid i interpreted them the way i do now. The lessons must have been taught to me more the way Gal describes them, with a more positive bias to them than you typically see as an adult just reading them yourself.

I think perhaps if you consider the stories and look for a positive angle - perhaps even check out some books of Bible stories written for kids, which may interpret them, and spell out the intended positive lesson, for the reader - you can discuss the stories he's learning with him and influence the way he absorbs them so that he doesn't think the Christian God is always angry and mean.

See, I've never seen God as being unforgiving. With the exception of a very few occasions, the people, whether Israelite or otherwise, were given a chance to change their ways and either refused or accepted but eventually went back to their old way of doing things or else - thinking of the Assyrians - attempted to combine monotheistic with polytheistic idol worship. Not sure how they were going to do that, honestly.

You have to dig to find that information in the Christian Old Testament because, honestly, it's pretty much set up so that it's impossible to read it as a straight narrative.

I'm still a huge fan of the life of David. For one thing, it's one of the few bits of Biblical history over which there isn't much historical conflict - from what history's taught us, the nation of Israel was in conflict with the countries spoken of in that text, the actions and morality of those stories about matches the actions and morality of Semitic people in that time period, and so on.

And David's such a distinctly human figure. At times he screws up, then tries to make good under his own strength, fails again and finally remembers to listen to God and the prophets and crawls back out. And then at other times he does just the right thing at just the right time, even when the right thing is far, far from the easiest thing. And what makes the story so hopeful is that he's later referred to as the only king whose "whole heart" was for God. If a guy who kills one of his best friends so he can cover up for the fact that he got his wife pregnant can atone for it, then there's hope for everyone.

I agree. And it *would* be easier if you could pick the stories: in my limited religious education, for instance, the story of Noah was used as proof of the fallibility of God.
But some of the stories as *stories* are inspirational. Again about David and Nathan's parable of the lamb. Some of these are very allround messages about greed. The fallibility of Kings like Solomon and David. the loyalty of Jonathan and his decision. Saul's envy of David.
I mean you don't *have* to start with the sin of Onan, or Abrahams sacrifice. He can study that if he wants to, when he's older.

I have to qualify what I am about to say as that these ideas came about during a bible study class. I too am fascinated about all religions and do not pigeon hole my self in just one aspect of any religion but what fascinated me in this particular class was this:

The new testament is a new covenant with God through Christ which breaks the "old covenant"-the old testament.

Christ simplified the 10 comamndments down to one simple statement, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

But in that humans are often wont of complicating things. They took that utter simplicity of Christ and screwed it up.

Christianity in it's purest distilled form is both very simple but a very hard faith to practice. Some actually achieve being a peace and truly loving and caring about all who are on this earth but that is rare. (and that simplicity is reflected in a lot of the world's religions but few get it right-it is the eternal struggle to figure out what "doing right" means).

And as it took approximately two hundred years before the bible was actually written down and was an oral tradition for all that time plus has been over interpreted from language to language, the bible is the oldest game of telephone going.

This really great seeing a place where people can discuss these aspects rather than argue them.

Thank you, all.

quote:

Originally posted by lilith42:
the bible is the oldest game of telephone going.

back home thats called 'chinese whispers' ah the joys of subtile raceism...

As for the subject - I had a series of really beautiful hardcover books A4 sized called my bible stories, they covered the baby in the reed basket, david and goliath and my memory is failing me as to what else. I have no idea if they were direct scripts from the old testament or child friendly conversions, but they were wonderful stories with great illustrations.

I still have them packed away somewhere is a box at home, I guess I'm proof that no matter how much religious material you ingest and believe as a child, you go your own way in the end.....though to be honest I never read the stories as truth, just stories like my Tales of Maui (Maori Myths) books and my Eygption/chinese/ireland myths and legends books too.

Oh and I think that style of storytelling in the old testemant matchs other religious stories of the time or earlier, I've been horrified by the stories of Khrisna's childhood and life. It's basically tales of a spoilt brat with the powers of a god....oh you pissed me off i shall drag you behind my horse for 44 days!

For me, it's kinda like Bush and Obama. Obama wouldn't look so great if we hadn't suffered for years with Bush. So it is with the Old Testament -- the New Testament wouldn't be so radical if not set against the Old Testament. It serves to illustrate how BIG and completely different the new covenant was.

(ETA: That said, Ecclesiastes is still my favorite book out of both Testaments.)

quote:

Originally posted by aitapata:
For me, it's kinda like Bush and Obama. Obama wouldn't look so great if we hadn't suffered for years with Bush. So it is with the Old Testament -- the New Testament wouldn't be so radical if not set against the Old Testament. It serves to illustrate how BIG and completely different the new covenant was.

(ETA: That said, Ecclesiastes is still my favorite book out of both Testaments.)

you make me lol, Ms. Pata. (oddly, Ecclesiastes is one of my favorites, too. plus everything John wrote. I <3 John.)

anyway! on topic, what Dweller said. taking the example of the flood, the biblical story had Noah building that damn ark for 120 years. think people didn't notice, ask what he was doing? plus, the ark was big. like, really huge. with enough room (if you figure up the dimensions in the story [stupid cubits]) to hold a hell of a lot more people than just Noah and his family.

I think the point of the Old Testament is really...screw-ups get second chances. people do crazy dumb bad things, but there's always a second chance if you choose to take it.

(Daniel's story is a really good one for kids, btw.)

I'm torn on this subject.

On one hand, it is probably not possible to overstate the literary/cultural/historical importance of the Old Testament/Hebrew Scriptures. I firmly believe that, Christian, Jew, Atheist, Druid, Whathaveyou, you just can't understand western culture if you aren't familiar with the Bible--including the Old Testament.

I also believe that children benefit from old stories of all kinds, that it gives them a richer imaginative landscape which gives them all kinds of advantages in life. So I would want children to be exposed to Aesop's Fables, to Greek Myth, to Native myths, to folk tales and fairy tales of all kinds, to legends and stories. I want my kids to know Gawain and the Green Knight, and Wisekejak, and Achilles, and Hercules, and David, and I think the more they hear of all of that the better of they will be in innumerable ways.

And I would say that the Bible is the most important because of the huge impact that it's had.

BUT.

Having said all of that, I don't read the Bible in the same way that I read other myths and folktales. I don't put King David in the same category as Hercules in my mind, and I don't want my kid to, and if I'm honest, I don't really think you should either.

I think that the Old Testament is a formative book for a community--it tells the story of God's interaction with humanity, and the story of his chosen people. I think that the laws of God given in the Old Testament are a gift, and that they tell me something true about the world as it really is--something I can't get anywhere else. And as a Christian I believe that Jesus is the fulfillment of the law, so that the New Testament is incomplete and incomprehensible without the Old.