Neil Gaiman www.NeilgaimanBoard.com www.NeilgaimanBoard.com The World's End The World's End What is the purpose of reading the Old Testament?
www.NeilgaimanBoard.com www.NeilgaimanBoard.com The World's End The World's End What is the purpose of reading the Old Testament?|
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working on his degree in brapping Member  |
the "Old Testament" is basically incoherent from a Christian context, that is, if you look at it just as the prequel to the "New Testament if you just read it as a translation of a translation of a translation, devoid of any context, taking everything at face value, of course you'll be horrified.
but if you read it as what it's supposed to be -- primarily a law book -- and also take into account that it's basically the "lecture notes" and the explanation is in the oral tradition which Christianity doesn't even admit exists, then it makes perfect sense. it's a set of instructions for how to live life, and life is messy. it's full of people behaving appallingly and disasters in the world and terrible things and you have to know how to deal with them. i never understood this "wow, God must be really mean to kill everyone in the world except Noah and his family." God kills EVERYONE. whether they die in a flood or they die of a heart attack or they die of old age or they get crushed by a truck, it's all because God wills it. life isn't a right, it's a privilege. we live at God's pleasure and He can take life away from us at any time He wants. _______________________________________ WARNING: the preceding message is not to be taken personally. Keep away from children. *** Inactivist of the Radical Status Quo |
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Member |
Aside from the entire religious side of it, I think you can think of the old testement as a real part of history. And I'm not arguing for the actual tales told in the OT (or bible in general), but rather that it has influenced so much of what's happened in western civiliztion over the last umpteen centuries. Influences for events and motivations for people are just as important as the events and people themselves.
---------------------------- "How do you get from here to the rest of the world?" |
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Administrator/Colporteur Member  |
Christianity doesn't - Christians do. Hard to really get into the "lecture notes," though, when they're chiefly in a language you can't speak, let alone read.
Part of the perception of meanness comes from the Christian presentation of hell as eternal. If hell is eternal, then when God kills someone because they're naughty, without offer a chance for confession and turning away, he's condemning them to eternal torment. Not very much what we think of as merciful.. With hell as a place of punishment through which one passes, it becomes considerably more palatable. And, really, I don't get the whole "God's evil and mean because he kills people" thing. I first really started thinking about it lately when I saw this supposedly clever GraphJam that showed the number of people God killed in the OT compared to Satan - Satan's total was about a hundred, God's was in the hundreds of thousands. And I thought to myself, "No, it should be a lot higher. God killed everyone who's died between then and now." __________ AJGraeme "You see, I have a policy about honesty and ass-kicking: if you ask for it, I have to let you have it." -Taylor Mali "I am a sexy, shoeless god of war." -Belkar |
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working on his degree in brapping Member |
is that so? i was under the impression that normative Christianity denies the authenticity of the oral tradition entirely, which is why they disregard the Talmud. am i wrong about that? the main thing is that the Torah makes very little sense on its own, without the commentaries and explanations. but the Talmud is written in Aramaic, which hardly anyone understands and nobody really speaks, as you mentioned -- unless they learn it specifically to study the Talmud, pretty much. but there are thousands of people doing it right now because they think it's important. plus, today there are tons of books in every language that summarize the most relevant interpretations.
right. also, just death itself is often supposed to be enough punishment for one's sins in life -- as it's apparently quite unpleasant. _______________________________________ WARNING: the preceding message is not to be taken personally. Keep away from children. *** Inactivist of the Radical Status Quo |
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has been eaten by a grue. Member |
so, yeah, right, God's killing us all. but...biblically speaking, mind...it's not his fault. he warned us. we just listened to Satan instead. so...that'd make the body count Satan's, not God's. or our own, imo. we die because we, as a species/race/whatever, are fucked up. what happens to us afterwards is our choice. at least that's how I read the Old Testament. ~ We're just babies making up a game, if you're right. But...babies playing a game can make a play-world which licks your real world hollow. That's why I'm going to stand by the play-world. ~ Elite Special Force Procrastinator, trained in High Arts of Extended Coffee Breaks and Master Linguist of the Water Cooler Conversation |
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Sittin' at the dock of the Bayeaux Tapestry Member  |
A question that's always bugged me about the Hebrew God;
God is all-powerful, right? Does He have needs? Does He crave anything? Because I've never been able to square exactly why God would want to create little headaches such as us. If God is as all-powerful as the Bible says, we're pathetically nothing to Him. Why would he waste time 1) creating us, and 2) worrying about us? Why would He care?  "The other night I dreamed that King George VI was dead, and that Helen Hardinge had somehow or other got herself proclaimed Queen of England, and that I was detailed to go and tell her that it wouldn't do at all; and when I did this, all she said was, 'You see, I am really Queen Mary,' and I said, 'Oh very well' - words to that effect, and woke up. Last night I dreamed that Eisenhower came to stay with us, and he insisted on being put to sleep in the dog kennel, with a collar and chain about his neck." - Sir Alan Lascelles, 19 February 1980 |
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has been eaten by a grue. Member |
he wanted friends. imo.
~ We're just babies making up a game, if you're right. But...babies playing a game can make a play-world which licks your real world hollow. That's why I'm going to stand by the play-world. ~ Elite Special Force Procrastinator, trained in High Arts of Extended Coffee Breaks and Master Linguist of the Water Cooler Conversation |
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Sittin' at the dock of the Bayeaux Tapestry Member |
Why would a God want friends as small as us? Why not hang out with the angels, or create a she-God?
"The other night I dreamed that King George VI was dead, and that Helen Hardinge had somehow or other got herself proclaimed Queen of England, and that I was detailed to go and tell her that it wouldn't do at all; and when I did this, all she said was, 'You see, I am really Queen Mary,' and I said, 'Oh very well' - words to that effect, and woke up. Last night I dreamed that Eisenhower came to stay with us, and he insisted on being put to sleep in the dog kennel, with a collar and chain about his neck." - Sir Alan Lascelles, 19 February 1980 |
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Dread Buthulhu Member  |
Really? *scratches head* *read-read-read* A-ha. "Fear God, and eat pie: for this is the whole duty of man." Go figure.  |
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has been eaten by a grue. Member |
well, he already had angels. but they never had to choose to serve/love him (the choice they made was in the negative; Satan et al chose to oppose God). and he doesn't need another God, especially as the Christian God is generally believed to be triune, anyway.
I think God wanted the opportunity to be loved freely and willingly. ~ We're just babies making up a game, if you're right. But...babies playing a game can make a play-world which licks your real world hollow. That's why I'm going to stand by the play-world. ~ Elite Special Force Procrastinator, trained in High Arts of Extended Coffee Breaks and Master Linguist of the Water Cooler Conversation |
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Surprise Inspector Member  |
yes, but then when you don't love him freely, you get punished by not going to heaven. so where's the "free" in that?
"Are you a princess? I said & she said I'm much more than a princess, but you don't have a name for it yet here on earth." -Brian Andreas Limertilly: A pagan deity forgotten by man and therefore banished to the realms of memory and darkness now remembered by a young girl in downtown L.A. in the form of a dream and therefore freed to reap your revenge on the people who discarded you, thereby forcing said girl to learn to use her innate yet awesome powers as a soothsayer to gather forces of the Earth to defy you and once more banish you to your cold, cold prisoooooon |
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Sittin' at the dock of the Bayeaux Tapestry Member |
Why would choice to love or reject God motivate God? In what way would He care what we believe?
And why does that give Him the right to punish His creations with eternal torture, if He made us this way? "The other night I dreamed that King George VI was dead, and that Helen Hardinge had somehow or other got herself proclaimed Queen of England, and that I was detailed to go and tell her that it wouldn't do at all; and when I did this, all she said was, 'You see, I am really Queen Mary,' and I said, 'Oh very well' - words to that effect, and woke up. Last night I dreamed that Eisenhower came to stay with us, and he insisted on being put to sleep in the dog kennel, with a collar and chain about his neck." - Sir Alan Lascelles, 19 February 1980 |
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Did something right Member  |
Alex from A Clockwork Orange really seemed to enjoy it . . . .
---------------------------------------------------------- "It really is fun to to stick burning objects into various orifices." "Sorry I haven't been around much, but I am easily distracted by shiny objects." "WEIRD! WEIRDY-WEIRDO-WEIRD! WEIRDOPOTTAMUS WEIRDOSAUR! HIM! YOU! WEIRD!"-Mr. Furious |
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Sittin' at the dock of the Bayeaux Tapestry Member |
Not seen that film...
"The other night I dreamed that King George VI was dead, and that Helen Hardinge had somehow or other got herself proclaimed Queen of England, and that I was detailed to go and tell her that it wouldn't do at all; and when I did this, all she said was, 'You see, I am really Queen Mary,' and I said, 'Oh very well' - words to that effect, and woke up. Last night I dreamed that Eisenhower came to stay with us, and he insisted on being put to sleep in the dog kennel, with a collar and chain about his neck." - Sir Alan Lascelles, 19 February 1980 |
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Administrator/Colporteur Member |
First of all, you're assuming that God's just powerful. He's not. He's infinite, outside the laws and boundaries of, well, anything, so attempting to ascribe anything human-like to him is doomed to failure. The Bible describes him in human terms because those terms are all we have to use, but it's a bit like a blind man painting a sunrise.
I've already addressed the notion that "bad people go to hell," but just to be clear, again, that's not necessarily the belief of the individual believer in YHWH and certainly isn't the belief of the vast majority of adherents to Judaism. Honestly, so far as I know, belief in the eternality of hell is apostastic in Judaism. __________ AJGraeme "You see, I have a policy about honesty and ass-kicking: if you ask for it, I have to let you have it." -Taylor Mali "I am a sexy, shoeless god of war." -Belkar |
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Sittin' at the dock of the Bayeaux Tapestry Member |
I still see that as a simple get-out clause when logical arguments fail to work for religion. Sorry, Dweller. I think that's where any kind of reasoned debate on religion fails.
"The other night I dreamed that King George VI was dead, and that Helen Hardinge had somehow or other got herself proclaimed Queen of England, and that I was detailed to go and tell her that it wouldn't do at all; and when I did this, all she said was, 'You see, I am really Queen Mary,' and I said, 'Oh very well' - words to that effect, and woke up. Last night I dreamed that Eisenhower came to stay with us, and he insisted on being put to sleep in the dog kennel, with a collar and chain about his neck." - Sir Alan Lascelles, 19 February 1980 |
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always wears a tie - just not around his neck Member  |
and who would think a religious or political topic would wander off topic?
 Head of internal security of the Realm of Unproductivity and Procrastination, Catnip Master in the order of the Pineapple. |
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Smartest woman in the world. Member  |
My Humanities teacher in high school was a former Minister, and we read the book of Job in that class because he felt it was the most important part of the bible - it's what made the new testiment necessary because it illustrates that God was not human and did not work in human ways. He's God, and has always been almighty, etc, but until Christ, he didn't understand what it is to be human.
Take that or leave as you like, it's about the extent of my formal religious education (unless you count those bible story cartoons with the annoying robot that I used to watch by mistake). |
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always wears a tie - just not around his neck Member |
Me. I think books are important, even ones i don't want to read but I have read the bible (a few times, not counting all those statistical parts, I am not that masochistic) and my opinion on the topic, you can't read one book without the other, they tell a more complete story (not utterly complete, some of the books in the apocrypha add some more color). Also while the NT has more spiritual meaning, the OT has more grandiose stories. Plus The Song of Solomon (or Song of Songs) is some great soft porn(I did my college report on that book
)Head of internal security of the Realm of Unproductivity and Procrastination, Catnip Master in the order of the Pineapple. |
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Goofy Beast Member  |
I'm afraid I don't have much time for a long reply here, but I don't think you're arguing with logic either, Mark. You're arguing with psychology, and rather basic, even simplistic psychology at that. Doesn't automatically make you wrong, but if you want to have an argument about these things based on logic then you really have to revise your own argument too. |
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