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Weirdy American Tart Thing
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I was babbling about it in another thread, but I figured it maybe deserved its own thread. Plus, maybe we'll attract baking spammers rather than shoe spammers.

I am turning into my mother and the diabetes has kicked in and I've read numerous reports that sourdough bread is better/has a lower glycemic index. I've always wanted to try it, but the whole process is a bit daunting. Not so much making the starter, that's easy enough, but then afterwards. There are only vague instructions as to how to feed and maintain it. I guess because it's more of a hands on, learn it as you go sort of learning curve. Anyway, I'll get there in a week or so.

Starter: I wanted to do the pineapple juice recipe, but had none on Saturday, so I tried just flour and water. One website said that using home-milled whole wheat wasn't advised 'cos the heat from the grinder would destroy the yeast. Well, I mixed some up anyway. Sunday morning I fed it and marked on the glass where the level was and went out shopping for supplies. That afternoon I mixed up some juice starter and noticed the other starter had risen about half an inch above the line and it was full of bubbles. So I'm guessing that my home milled flour didn't get harmed in my mill.

But still, I threw it out, because there's a bacteria that I can't pronounce that mimics yeast production. The acid from the pineapple juice inhibits that bacteria.

I have several bread books, the library has even more. Two that I got out of the library: Peter Reinhart's Whole Grain book and Dan Leader's Local Breads (which has a recipe for a durum wheat starter that greatly interests me 'cos I use durum wheat in the pizza dough and ciabatta) and the starter recipe I'm using is this:

pineapple juice starter

I'm also trawling the forums at that site - I especially like the simplicity of one formula that the baker calls the 1-2-3 method. 1 is the amount of mature starter, 2 is twice that amount in liquid, 3 is three times the starter amount in flours. Add in about 2% of the total in salt and mix/rise/bake.

My main problem is, when do I take it out of the fridge and how much do I feed it to give me enough to use in the recipe *and* enough to keep the starter going. But I guess I'll figure that out as I go.



Minister of Kraftwerk in the Realm of U & P, Order of the Pineapple with frond for advancement in Nap studies.


The brain: not always amenable to logic. ~Hive

 
Posts: 25366 | Location: under tangled yarn | Registered: August 09, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Never tried sour dough from scratch. Good luck.

I remember about 15years ago getting a starter for friendship bread. Someone gave me the starter. Had to feed it for three weeks, than had enough to make one, pass starter on to someone els, and keep starter. The only thing I remember is you had to use a wooden spoon.


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Posts: 2485 | Location: Page 42 | Registered: December 27, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I got some starter from a friend of mine, once, but never actually used it. Eventually forgot to feed it, and it died in the fridge.

The friend who gave it to me made amazing bread with it, but eventually gave it up, because he realized that he was making bread ALL THE TIME and then eating it ALL THE TIME and this was probably not good for his girlish figure. He also made sourdough pancakes. Those sounded delicious.

Now I want bread.


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Weirdy American Tart Thing
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Amish Friendship bread is a bit different. Well, it's the same principle, but it's meant for sweet breads. I want to bake regular sandwich breads and pizza and ciabatta.

And I do plan on making waffles and pancakes and pita and such things, but those are for the boys. At least until I can regulate things a bit more and have smaller portions. Plus, I put all that in the freezer so we don't eat it all at once.

Day 2 and it smells like yeast-y bread, but I don't see any bubbles.



Minister of Kraftwerk in the Realm of U & P, Order of the Pineapple with frond for advancement in Nap studies.


The brain: not always amenable to logic. ~Hive

 
Posts: 25366 | Location: under tangled yarn | Registered: August 09, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Weirdy American Tart Thing
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Day 3 and it's still just lurking there. It smells fine, but there aren't any bubbles at all. I will continue to feed it though.

But I decided to try another starter, like the first one I tried with equal parts of my home milled whole wheat (which the site claimed wouldn't be optimal because the heat from the grinder would destroy the yeast present on the grain) and pineapple juice instead of water. The recipe on his site called for 50 grams of each, flour and water. So I measured some out and decided 42 grams of each would be geekier.

I'm trying this because the stuff I started on Saturday, with flour and water, was bubbly and doubling by day 2. I just got wigged out about the bacteria that I can't pronounce and dumped it. So now I wait. And I need more pineapple juice.



Minister of Kraftwerk in the Realm of U & P, Order of the Pineapple with frond for advancement in Nap studies.


The brain: not always amenable to logic. ~Hive

 
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I always made a grape base starter, never used pineapple... I can give you my recipe if you like.

For maintenance:

When you use the starter, just replace with equal amounts of a flour and water mixture with a pinch of sugar. (You take 1 cup starter out, then add 1 cup water, 1 cup flour, 1 pinch sugar) Mix well and leave out on the counter until bubbly again, then refrigerate.

I wouldn't worry about the unpronounceable bacteria. If it gets streaks of pinkish orangish, then toss it, but if it gets a dark liquidy stuff on topi just stir it back it (it's basically alcohol, but helps give the sour flavour).

Also, I used to keep mine in a wide mouth ball canning jar.


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Posts: 6962 | Location: Flo-Rida | Registered: December 16, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Here's the bread book that I have, well the main one, which I love although I did find the initial instructions on making a starter a bit vague. His way of kneading is pretty awesome, a bit time consuming, but oh so simple.

I made my starter simply from flour and water, using only organic flour and spring water (the chlorine in tap water can kill the yeast). After the initial loaf (my first didn't rise very well, the following loaves have worked great) I just feed mine when I want to use it. I've left it in the fridge for a couple weeks without using it and it always comes right back when I feed it. The main thing to remember is to get rid of the liquid that forms on top that is acidic, and I even scrape off the top layer. Then I give it equal parts water and flour depending on the size of loaf I'm planning and let it set overnight. I've never had any worries with it.


Jeremy

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en boucle Claire Diterzi
"Come over here to where When lingers." Jig of Life -- Kate Bush
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Posts: 1955 | Location: France | Registered: December 18, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Weirdy American Tart Thing
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I looked at my jars this morning - I'm using wide mouth quart sized mason jars because I have lots of them - and the first one with the rye four grew! It's about doubled in size. I'm so proud of it. Smile

When Lingers - Don't you just love a book that changes everything! My bread epiphany book was Peter Reinhart's The Bread Baker's Apprentice.



Minister of Kraftwerk in the Realm of U & P, Order of the Pineapple with frond for advancement in Nap studies.


The brain: not always amenable to logic. ~Hive

 
Posts: 25366 | Location: under tangled yarn | Registered: August 09, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Weirdy American Tart Thing
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My starters are happily bubbling along, the first one is a bit more liquid and the annoying part is the recipe says to keep out a 1/4 cup of it, add a 1/4 cup of flour and a 1/4 cup of water. I have been weighing my ingredients for so very long and I no longer have a clue where the 1/4 cup has gotten to. So, since it was so runny I just measured it out in the liquid measuring cup and arbitrarily used my typical flour measurement of 5 ounces = 1 cup, and so used 1.25 ounces of King Arthur bread flour.

The other starter is equal measures of home milled white whole wheat and pineapple juice, 42 grams of each. It's much stiffer, but it's been showing a lot more activity sooner than the other one did. Tomorrow it will get water instead of juice. And I have a well, so no chlorination in the water.

So neither one is really ready to start baking just yet, but I'm getting there! And I realise that there will be longer rise times and the first few times will likely not rise very high, so my expectations are low.



Minister of Kraftwerk in the Realm of U & P, Order of the Pineapple with frond for advancement in Nap studies.


The brain: not always amenable to logic. ~Hive

 
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Weirdy American Tart Thing
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I stopped using pineapple juice a few days ago and switched to water - it's from a private well. And both starters were just fine with switching to water. They got unhappy when I switched to regular bread flour. King Arthur bread flour.

The rye starter is very soupy and it separates. The other one is still like a very sticky dough, but it no longer rises. There are a few bubbles, but it's just lurking.

So I am disappointed. But I'll just keep repeating the dump out most of it/feed it routine and see what happens.



Minister of Kraftwerk in the Realm of U & P, Order of the Pineapple with frond for advancement in Nap studies.


The brain: not always amenable to logic. ~Hive

 
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Can you get an organic bread flour? It might help. Othserwise, I think they might just need a few days to adjust to the regular flour.

I started making bread after, the 5th or sixth day, I don't remember, and ever though that first loaf didn't do much, the following ones did. I'm always surprised how reactive it gets with that big feeding the night before. I'll give it 150g of water and flour the night before, let it set out (if it has been in the fridge) and then next day it has blown the top off the tupperwear.


Jeremy

¤ ¤ ¤ ¤ ¤ ¤
en boucle Claire Diterzi
"Come over here to where When lingers." Jig of Life -- Kate Bush
How's your jesus christ been hanging? Father Lucifer -- Tori Amos
Where When lingers and talks about music, books, art and life.
 
Posts: 1955 | Location: France | Registered: December 18, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Weirdy American Tart Thing
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I switched back to the whole wheat flour and it's happier, but still reluctant. The first starter is just bubbly soup. It doesn't rise much more than 1/4 inch and then it starts to separate.

I'm much happier with the stuff that looks more like a dough blob.

I started all over again, using juice and my whole wheat, it's Day 2 1/2 and that one has doubled! Actually it's a bit over double, but it's not quite tripled. And it only got juice that first day, after that has been water.

I also cracked open my copy of The Bread Bible by Rose Levy Berenbaum. It's a massive book and the section on sourdough is packed with info and tips.

So I'm happier with this third go, only I'm planning to just give it whole wheat flour and water.



Minister of Kraftwerk in the Realm of U & P, Order of the Pineapple with frond for advancement in Nap studies.


The brain: not always amenable to logic. ~Hive

 
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I can't compare with that. My starter started with only a couple of spoons of water and flour, so at the end I has merely a tiny jar and then only the bottom of it, so I was glad to have something bubbling. But when I kicked it up that notch for the first bake, the thing really took off. Have you seen Paul Hollywood's baking series? He has a whole episode on sourdough (he uses grapes) which I found interesting as well.


Jeremy

¤ ¤ ¤ ¤ ¤ ¤
en boucle Claire Diterzi
"Come over here to where When lingers." Jig of Life -- Kate Bush
How's your jesus christ been hanging? Father Lucifer -- Tori Amos
Where When lingers and talks about music, books, art and life.
 
Posts: 1955 | Location: France | Registered: December 18, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Weirdy American Tart Thing
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I've read about the grape starter before and found it very interesting.

I'm going to attempt a loaf tomorrow.



Minister of Kraftwerk in the Realm of U & P, Order of the Pineapple with frond for advancement in Nap studies.


The brain: not always amenable to logic. ~Hive

 
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My mother of rhubarb and flour



Gave rise to this sourdough pillow



Which when cleaved looked like this:



Texture is a tad spongy, but I can give myself some leeway as I mix it all by hand, having no mixer, and bake it in the worst oven I've ever swore at.





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Weirdy American Tart Thing
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Oh I am so very jealous! My starter is quite happy to bubble and double, but today I mixed up some proper dough and it's just lurking.

It's a pretty stiff dough, 'cos I used a lot of whole wheat flour. meh. I wasn't expecting much for this first go. I fed the starter this morning and it should be ready to start again. *sigh* I'll try again tomorrow.



Minister of Kraftwerk in the Realm of U & P, Order of the Pineapple with frond for advancement in Nap studies.


The brain: not always amenable to logic. ~Hive

 
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General sourdough question!

I've heard you aren't supposed to use anything metal when mixing the dough, but why? I sort of dread the thought of mixing it my hand, but I don't have a ceramic or glass bowl for my kitchenaid.


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Weirdy American Tart Thing
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I think stainless steel is OK - even for mixing and storing, but I can't pinpoint which book or website I got that from. I think the whole 'don't use metal' hearkens back to when aluminum was more frequently used.

I don't have a ceramic or glass bowl for the KitchenAid, I mixed the dough in my metal bowl and it's just fine. I mix up the starter in a glass mason jar and used a rubber spatula because it was easier to mix and scrape the sides.

My bread isn't a total failure, but it's not good when you've baked it and you know it's still a bit warm to cut it, but you cut it anyway and there's a blob of uncooked dough in the centre.

It was pretty cool in the house this morning when I started this project. Eventually I moved it to the microwave - I have a neck warmer thingy that I heated up a bit and left in there and left the door propped open so it was about 78F in there. And then it rose, a bit. So I decided to bake it. Got very little oven spring, thought it was done, took it out and it's very heavy, let it cool and decided to try it and discovered the blob.

So, not a total failure, I'm sure there are chunks that'll be edible, but it's far from a Successful Loaf.

I am gonna try mixing up a loaf tonight and letting it rise overnight and bake it when I get up tomorrow morning (about 6:30)



Minister of Kraftwerk in the Realm of U & P, Order of the Pineapple with frond for advancement in Nap studies.


The brain: not always amenable to logic. ~Hive

 
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quote:
Originally posted by smalltown:
General sourdough question!

I've heard you aren't supposed to use anything metal when mixing the dough, but why? I sort of dread the thought of mixing it my hand, but I don't have a ceramic or glass bowl for my kitchenaid.



That's a holdover from the days when metal bowls were made with aluminium or copper. The acid from the starter could leach toxins from the bowl. Possibly. I clean my copper pan with acid so there might be something to it grabbing unpleasant tasting stuff from the vessel and adding it to the dough. Stainless steel is fine. Though I prefer my heavy ceramic mixing bowl (Or Nelthita's fruit bowl as it often is) as doing everything by hand, I need something that doesn't get shift around by my vim and vigour.





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Weirdy American Tart Thing
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Fed the starter in the evening, it was happy and bubbly and over doubled - mixed up some dough, an hour later did a stretch and fold and it felt like that one time I had forgotten to add yeast to the dough, slack, stretchy, not sponge-y at all. I rolled it up, stuck it in a loaf pan and went to bed. Checked it at 6:30am and it's barely risen. 8 hours later and it's done almost nothing.

So, I suppose I can follow some of the King Arthur sourdough recipes and add instant yeast so that I know it will rise and still get some benefits of the sourdough starter? I dunno.



Minister of Kraftwerk in the Realm of U & P, Order of the Pineapple with frond for advancement in Nap studies.


The brain: not always amenable to logic. ~Hive

 
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