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is part of the international oatmeal conspiracy
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okay. so i wanted this separate from the olympic protest bit because i just wanted to find out how much we actually know about tibetan history and politics etc that isn't all about the protest, free tibet angle, or Chinese PR angl.

i am playing devil's advocate here.

what kicked it off was some discussion on the H-Net forum (its a history academic forum). a TA basically asked for some background info:

From a professor emeritus from Hartford:

quote:

To ask whether "Tibet" is historically or culturally "Chinese" runs
the danger of an essentialism. Chinese culture emerged over the
centuries as a blend of various non-Han cultures, and so there's no
reason to see the cultural interaction between the Tibetans and
Chinese any differently. Unfortunately, some people unwisely idealize
Tibetan culture and hypostatize it so that any outside influences
become a danger or affront. That makes little sense in terms of how
cultures actually evolve. A blending and mixing is presumably a good
thing unless there is good reason to believe otherwise in a particular
instance.

Whether Tibet is part of greater China in historical terms is either
tautological or a question without answer. It begs the question of
what exactly is meant by "Tibet" and "China"? Is a Christian Tibetan
non-Tibetan? Is New Mexico not part of the US because of the manner of
its acquisition? On the other hand, it might be tautological, for in
fact the autonomous region of Tibet is unquestionably within the
Chinese federation.

As for why China is so adamant in its Tibet policy, it would help if
you specified what you meant by "adamant"? If Chinese policy in Tibet
were beneficial and pursued vigorously, would you describe it as
"adamant" If the word implies an inflexibility, such behavior is
surely either a virtue or a vice depending on our assessment of the
policy.

The Chinese government was once badly divided on whether to push for
Western development or to keep all its economic marbles on the east
coast. Western development was the choice made, and by most measures,
this policy has been enormously beneficial. It did however,
necessarily run counter to some traditional values and vested
interests, and (with CIA support) those interests periodically
manifest themselves as an opposition. But study of the current
situation seem to conclude that the popular discontent is not so much
directed against the Chinese government as against Han residents, much
as in my country there is often a resentment of Korean shopkeepers.

There seems to be a broad understanding that the unrest in Tibet is a
reaction against modernization. So the question becomes, is
modernization good and necessary in Tibet, and was it carried out
intelligently and humanely? This puts your question into a quite
different framework, I believe.


There was also this article in the New York times in 1998: Searching for Tibet: The Shangri-La that never was

Telegraph article: The Myth of Tibetan Demographics

Where are you guys getting your information? What do you think of the above articles?


High Ranking Official of the Realm of Unproductivity and Procrastination, 
Dean of the UUP, First Class member of the order of the Pineapple.

scruffy ambulating reanimated hypothetical vegetarian leigonairre of the undead.  ~ Cav

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Posts: 23112 | Location: Somewhereshire | Registered: January 05, 2005Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Taking the second article, it certainly does seem like Chinese rule has not done Tibet harm demographically - the Tibetan population has doubled, and the Han compriseonly 6% of the population. Over forty years of Chinese rule, that's a pretty miniscule number - less than the number of immigrants in the UK. To pass an analogy, the Tibetan (and outsider) opposition to Han 'encroachment' on Tibetan historical land does seem a little - well, racist.

Tibet was always culturally under Chinese influence (in pretty much the same way as any other country in asia), but both China and Tibet were unified under the Yuan Dynasty ruled by the Mongols from 1271-1368. For the next few centuries it either recognized China as suzerain or it was part of China, depending on various circumstances, but the Kangxi Emperor (1654-1722) conquered it for good during his reign.

Tibet left China after the fall of the Qing Dynastry (1644-1912). In order to consolidate his power during the Republic that followed, Yuan Shikai gave both Mongolia and Tibet autonomy in 1913, though China was still their suzerian. During the warlord period that followed Yuan declaring himself Emperor and getting quickly deposed, the autonomy of Tibet and Mongolia understandable grew and they more-or-less stopped recognizing the supremacy of China though China never recognized their right to do so.

When China was brought back together under the Communists, it was felt necessary to bring Tibet back into compliance. Basically just re-asserting what had always been. No different than the United States asserting its power over the Confederacy, really. All States in America are fairly autonomous (and were more independent back in the day) but they don't have the right not to recognize Washington.



"The other night I dreamed that King George VI was dead, and that Helen Hardinge had somehow or other got herself proclaimed Queen of England, and that I was detailed to go and tell her that it wouldn't do at all; and when I did this, all she said was, 'You see, I am really Queen Mary,' and I said, 'Oh very well' - words to that effect, and woke up.

Last night I dreamed that Eisenhower came to stay with us, and he insisted on being put to sleep in the dog kennel, with a collar and chain about his neck."

- Sir Alan Lascelles, 19 February 1980
 
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is part of the international oatmeal conspiracy
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From: International Herald Tribune

quote:
India: China's railway link into Tibet is an engineering marvel. The Qinghai-Tibet rail link is expected to boost the Tibetan economy through increased trade and tourism.There is the concern, however, that migration of Han Chinese to Tibet, already encouraged by the Chinese government, can be expected to increase, with implications for Tibet's demography and cultural identity. There is concern too that the train will increase Beijing's military control over this restive region. The rail link holds out a mixed bag for India. On the one hand,it enhances China's military reinforcement capabilities against India. And,with a route into Tibet, along with the bus link across the Nathu-la Pass to India, it will enable Chinese goods to flood Indian markets. But the reverse holds true too: It provides India withaccess to Chinese markets, and this is what Delhi needs to build upon.


So do you go with improvement in economy or oppose it because of Han Chinese threat? (Not to mention influence from India)


This
article (2003) states in its abstract even that "indigenous data sources have never been systematically analyzed."

More on demographics
"Tibet experts decry demographic hype"

Random interesting story about India's dilema with Tibet/Chinia. Here


High Ranking Official of the Realm of Unproductivity and Procrastination, 
Dean of the UUP, First Class member of the order of the Pineapple.

scruffy ambulating reanimated hypothetical vegetarian leigonairre of the undead.  ~ Cav

Look, I've got a cape and a tendency towards violence.  It does not make me a superhero!  ~ Domitella


 
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I like reading Andrew Martin Fisher's analyses.

quote:
In a nutshell, the very mechanisms by which Beijing has been attempting to resolve the “Tibet Question” through the force of rapid growth has in fact been reinforcing underlying political and social tensions due to the marginalization of Tibetans in the face of such growth.


Here's the official view of the exiled Tibetan Government about the railway on Save Tibet.

quote:
Deposits of oil and natural gas, and chromite, gold and zinc will be shipped east to China, with most economic benefits bypassing the many Tibetans who live on the outskirts of Tibet's centrally controlled economy, beyond the reach of the railway.
(...)
China has made no secret of its military interest in the railway either.


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rodentia extraordinarinus
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I think a lot of the calls for independence woudn't be happening if China was a pleasant regime, and there were no worries about human rights.

A lot of the trouble with the debate about Tibetan independence, at least from what I've heard recently from experts/commentators is that anyone seeing Tibet as part of China is somehow condoning the human rights violations, although they seem to me to be two separate issues, just going on in the same area. Human rights is a problem over the whole of China, and not particualr to Tibet. If China was the sort of regime we'd approve of, then Tibet would be far more of a side issue.

There is, as has been said, also the problem that Tibet and the Tibetan culture is idealised in the West.



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The lion's share goes to Han Chinese, followed by Hui Muslims, and then ethnic Tibetans. But ethnic discrimination is a common staple of many countries. It is never a good thing, but I don't think the Tibetan case can be singled out as "special". Additionally, it doesn't help that the separatists are the ones promoting the ethnic values so the flawed logic goes, "get rid of the culture, get rid of the separatists." History generally shows that, at least for a few generations, it galvanizes the separatists . . . though after that it usually works pretty well.



"The other night I dreamed that King George VI was dead, and that Helen Hardinge had somehow or other got herself proclaimed Queen of England, and that I was detailed to go and tell her that it wouldn't do at all; and when I did this, all she said was, 'You see, I am really Queen Mary,' and I said, 'Oh very well' - words to that effect, and woke up.

Last night I dreamed that Eisenhower came to stay with us, and he insisted on being put to sleep in the dog kennel, with a collar and chain about his neck."

- Sir Alan Lascelles, 19 February 1980
 
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Did something right
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The English-language forums at anti-cnn.com are filled with a lot of venom towards the West, exacerbated by the recent protests. I suggest looking at Western world's sense of moral superority, and the Tibet FAQ.


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but the Western world IS morally superior. it just IS.


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For me, this is a state's rights issue. If the administrative body of a state, which is the least discrete geo-political unit that I think we can consider Tibet to be, wishes to secede from the larger government body that administrates it, it should be allowed to do, although I definitely think that if the larger body has put a lot of resources into that state, they should get some recompense when the state leaves, and should make it clear that when the larger body leaves, certain infrastructure will become the state's responsibility.

I don't think that the larger body has the right to use its military, or the threat of its military, to keep this from happening.

What muddies things further is that in Tibet there doesn't appear to be a true "administrative body" capable of making this decision on the part of its populace.


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mutant hedgehog worm
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quote:
Originally posted by Dweller in Darkness:
For me, this is a state's rights issue. If the administrative body of a state, which is the least discrete geo-political unit that I think we can consider Tibet to be, wishes to secede from the larger government body that administrates it, it should be allowed to do, although I definitely think that if the larger body has put a lot of resources into that state, they should get some recompense when the state leaves, and should make it clear that when the larger body leaves, certain infrastructure will become the state's responsibility.

I don't think that the larger body has the right to use its military, or the threat of its military, to keep this from happening.

What muddies things further is that in Tibet there doesn't appear to be a true "administrative body" capable of making this decision on the part of its populace.


Thats total bollocks,

If California tomorrow decided it wanted to be independant no way in hell that would happen.

It almost always takes war to get eventual seperation of a cultural/geographical seperation to occur, just look at the former Yugoslavia: years of civic unrest, war, seperation, then they all join the EU!
 
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I did say something about there being a process involved. If any state thinks they can snap their fingers and leave their greater body, they're delusional, but that doesn't mean that it's impossible or, moreover, that it's something that ought not to be allowed.

If California left, the interstate highways would become their responsibility, they'd have to establish their own trade laws with the surrounding area, they'd have to set up their own tax structure, health care, all that stuff. It'd be a process of decades, not even years, but it is possible to have it done peaceably, just the same as the creation of a new state can be done peacably. The creation of Nunavut, the semi-autonomous territory created in Canada, stands a one example.

And I'm quite aware that states parting company rarely happens peacefully. I posted a while back in a thread where someone asked a question about the American Civil War that the war was, in essence, a state's rights issue and, well, that's a war that earned itself capital letters and remains one of the bloodiest conflicts in this country's history. I'm not saying that China is going to let Tibet go, just that there's precedent for it and saying, "They've always been a part of China, so they can't leave," isn't much of an argument.

And, honestly, hal, did I piss in your cornflakes and not notice? I can't remember the last time you responded to any one of my posts with anything more than utter screed that didn't seem to actually have much to do with my post. Sincerely, if I said, "I like shredded wheat," I get the feeling you'd respond, "No you don't, and you're a fool for thinking so."


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AJGraeme
"You see, I have a policy about honesty and ass-kicking: if you ask for it, I have to let you have it."
-Taylor Mali
"Science is the foot that kicks magic square in the nuts."
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But the question is, who would get to decide that?
I mean, say people in a certain area voted for independence. Who's got the right of possession to bestow land and nation rights on them?
The nations are still sovereign, it's not like the UN gets to distribute these things - it can only act if its member nations agree to.


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Dovetailing with hal's comment that states generally gain independence through war, it's usually the victor in the conflict that distributes such things. The conflict in Canada (and any potential conflict over California) would likely be almost entirely political, but by no means would that be the case here. And if the UN were to intervene, politically or otherwise, in this particular act of nation-making, it wouldn't be the first time.

I'm not pollyannaish enough to think that China ought to let Tibet go and that there won't be shots fired over it so long as everyone's nice and puts up their hands before they talk. I can't see an end that results in Tibet independence that doesn't involve violent conflict (sorry, Buddhists), but that it could involve violence, doesn't mean that such independence is, per se, not worth considering.


__________
AJGraeme
"You see, I have a policy about honesty and ass-kicking: if you ask for it, I have to let you have it."
-Taylor Mali
"Science is the foot that kicks magic square in the nuts."
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I guess I still find it hard to envision a system that would make this work in practice.


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is part of the international oatmeal conspiracy
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I think using Nunavut is a bad example, they are part of the confederation, not trying to be an autonomous region or country...

This message has been edited. Last edited by: silly punk,


High Ranking Official of the Realm of Unproductivity and Procrastination, 
Dean of the UUP, First Class member of the order of the Pineapple.

scruffy ambulating reanimated hypothetical vegetarian leigonairre of the undead.  ~ Cav

Look, I've got a cape and a tendency towards violence.  It does not make me a superhero!  ~ Domitella


 
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is part of the international oatmeal conspiracy
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Oh my god. I am such a geek, reading the Nunavut Act...


High Ranking Official of the Realm of Unproductivity and Procrastination, 
Dean of the UUP, First Class member of the order of the Pineapple.

scruffy ambulating reanimated hypothetical vegetarian leigonairre of the undead.  ~ Cav

Look, I've got a cape and a tendency towards violence.  It does not make me a superhero!  ~ Domitella


 
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You're right, SP. Honestly, Canada itself is a much better example.


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-Taylor Mali
"Science is the foot that kicks magic square in the nuts."
-Scratch Fury
 
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is part of the international oatmeal conspiracy
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Possibly!

Historically much different, but yeah, peaceful disattachment of a vast region for autonomous control. Although we're a bit far from England than Tibet is from China Big Grin


High Ranking Official of the Realm of Unproductivity and Procrastination, 
Dean of the UUP, First Class member of the order of the Pineapple.

scruffy ambulating reanimated hypothetical vegetarian leigonairre of the undead.  ~ Cav

Look, I've got a cape and a tendency towards violence.  It does not make me a superhero!  ~ Domitella


 
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I think people would be much more accepting of Chinese rule of Tibet if the Chinese administered the province fairly and justly. Unfortunately they don't quite achieve this. That said, prior to Chinese rule most of the Tibetan population lived in poverty and religious superstition, but Han rule has developed the region quite intensively.



"The other night I dreamed that King George VI was dead, and that Helen Hardinge had somehow or other got herself proclaimed Queen of England, and that I was detailed to go and tell her that it wouldn't do at all; and when I did this, all she said was, 'You see, I am really Queen Mary,' and I said, 'Oh very well' - words to that effect, and woke up.

Last night I dreamed that Eisenhower came to stay with us, and he insisted on being put to sleep in the dog kennel, with a collar and chain about his neck."

- Sir Alan Lascelles, 19 February 1980
 
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Are you my mummy?
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quote:
Originally posted by D M:
Taking the second article, it certainly does seem like Chinese rule has not done Tibet harm demographically - the Tibetan population has doubled, and the Han compriseonly 6% of the population. Over forty years of Chinese rule, that's a pretty miniscule number - less than the number of immigrants in the UK. To pass an analogy, the Tibetan (and outsider) opposition to Han 'encroachment' on Tibetan historical land does seem a little - well, racist.
.

There are over 7.5 million non-Tibetan immigrants now and only 6 million and change Tibetans. "Tibet Autonomous Region" is only about a third of Tibet. Historically Tibet has usually been autonomous in practice, largely due to its inaccessible terrain. It's culture and language are obviously unique. Your argument clearly flawed. The Chinese cultural impetus for unity is understandable, but still wrong. But hey Palestine, Iraq, etc. Living in a country that supports the War on Terror I moved into a glass house a few years ago.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Nemo888,


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