I was going to post about this anyway today - I spent a long Sunday in the hospital with my mum, as I have for many days during the last month, as I have on many previous occasions over the last few years, and it's a subject I've been thinking a lot about.

I'm listening, belatedly, to Terry Pratchett's Richard Dimbleby Lecture Shaking Hands With Death, on what is usually called "assisted suicide" and what he calls "assisted death". It's only available on iPlayer for the rest of today - please, go download it now, while you have the chance.

I'm of an age where I've known quite a few people to die - some young, some old, of disease, accident, suicide and old age. I was very close to my late aunt, my mentor and friend, who lived a fabulous, productive, fulfilled life, much of it in extreme pain, but who, in her late 60's, when she'd really had enough, became a fervent supporter of the right to die movement. She died at 70, naturally, but if it had been legal, she repeatedly stated she would have chosen to go earlier.

I'm not thinking of this in relation to my mum. For all that she's made regular suicide threats since I was about 7 or 8, I don't think she's ever genuinely wanted to die, and for all she's having a ghastly, pain-filled, boredom-filled, confused existence, where she no longer knows neither what year it is, or what is happening hour to hour, I don't think she wants to die now. I am doing, and will do, whatever I can to keep my mum alive and as comfortable as possible, for as long as I can.

But for me - I look at my mum, and I look at my aunt, and, honestly, I'm with my aunt. I fervently hope it's a long, long time, if ever, before I consider this for myself - I hope to die in a skyboarding accident when I'm 102 - but when the time comes, I'd like the chance to decide for myself, and have the support and comfort of my friends and family when I do.

Over to you all.

Hive, I understand quite well where you are coming from. I've watched my Mom suffer for years and years and she has told me repeatedly she wishes for the same thing.

as usual with these things, it is avaible on youtube.

from the 'turn on!, what are you watching? thread'

quote:

Originally posted by Smaug:
The Richard Dimbleby Lecture

As the writer planned it, it made me laugh, it made me tear up, it made me MAD

Fabulous stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by Limertilly:
i have been watching billy connolly talk about wildebeest.

i also saw the richard dimbleby lecture and it was fanTAStic, and i don't see how anyone can have a major argument with assisted death after that. except possibly when it applies to them personally.

Being the pragmatist that I am, I have always (as far as I can remember) been a supporter of 'assisted death' and cannot understand anyone supporting the keeping alive of someone who is in the last stages of a terminal illness who does not want to keep breathing and being in pain. I do not say 'does not want to keep living', because i believe at that point it no longer counts as life, it's simply breathing.

Shit! You wouldn't do it to a cat or a dog, why the hell do you do it to a human?

quote:

Originally posted by Smaug:
Shit! You wouldn't do it to a cat or a dog, why the hell do you do it to a human?

I was thinking about this recently after reading Neil's posts about his cat dying. It is absolutely mad that anyone would agree that, once a pet is terminally ill and nothing can be done to save them and they're in pain, the most humane thing is to put it to sleep -a decision the owner makes, btw, not the pet. However when a human being decides for themselves that they don't want to go on, suddenly most people think they should just go on in pain and misery just because. It puzzles me.

There is however another side of things. I read some time ago in the Guardian a piece written by a guy whose mum was going to have an assisted suicide because she had some terminal illness and she didn't want to die in pain. Although the guy acknowledged his mother's reasons to go, and understood and respected them, he also had very conflicted emotions about it, because after all this was his mother who was choosing to go "before her time" and he couldn't help but feel she was abandoning them, in a way. It must have been painful to know that, from a certain day and a certain time onwards, your mother is no more.

The interesting thing about this case was that the mother wasn't suffering any pain when she decided to go. She wanted to go BEFORE all that started, so it's interesting the effect that had in the family. I expect if your loved one is suffering and in pain, you'll be grateful for that to stop. But if you see them healthy and seemingly fine, even though you know they're sick, it must be extremely hard to watch them put an end to their life.

quote:

Shit! You wouldn't do it to a cat or a dog, why the hell do you do it to a human?

ditto. I've always felt like this. My father feels the same way and he knows I won't prolong anything unless he expressly tells me to.

One of the most interesting points that i've heard made is that, if this is made legal, it will enable people to live longer, to put off the moment of their death, as they don't have to do it while they themselves are still fit to travel to Switzerland, or still fit enough to obtain the drugs, or whatever they plan to use. They can wait until they are really ready to go, rather than rush to do it while they are still physically able.

I don't know if I am in favor of "assisted death" per se.
What I am in favor of is a person's right to create a directive on how they want their care handled in a terminal situation or to appoint an individual or group to make decisions on their behalf.

It is my personal opinion that we resuscitate too often in some certain situations but that is a opinion that differs wildly among people.

If I was elderly and/or frail and I had no prognosis of full recovery or a good quality of life then I would opt to not be "full code". If I can no longer swallow or go into cardiac arrest I just want to be made as comfortable as possible and allowed to die naturally. Too often I hear stories about elderly people in nursing home situations being put through pain and having ribs broken through resuscitate procedures. I also would not want a feeding tube. I hear that they are extremly uncomfortable and painful.

I think it is wonderful that modern science has developed methods to keep us from thebrink so to speak, but we need to decide what are the best situations to use these methods.

*sorry this was typed in a hurry on break, if I was smart I would compose my thoughts more coherently and post this at a later date*

As you may or may not know, My mother passed away this fall. Two years ago she was in a coma, and 'we' were given the offer to unplug. 'We' said yes but wanted to wait 24 hours for two family member to fly in. Over night her kidneys stared to work and the doc said they could not ethically pull the plug. She woke up 5 days later. Form that time untill she died, her life was hell. At least 3/4 of the family thought 'we' should not have waited.

I am all for helping people pass with love and support. I just see that there could be potentical for missuse.

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Originally posted by library lady:

I am all for helping people pass with love and support. I just see that there could be potentical for missuse.

there is, which is why it should be done with legal support and the decision made by someone of sound mind (like a will is meant to be).

as a point of note however, it has not been found to be missed in the places it is currently allowed.

My mother in law ended up with 'dementia' - it was never really classified as Alzheimer's. She lost mobility and my father in law just couldn't help her around the house anymore. So she went to a nursing home. She improved and stablised for a month or so, then somehow fell out of bed and broker her arm. We visited her and she begged me to 'use a pillow and just do it'. I burst into tears and told her I couldn't. She held my hand and said OK and smiled at me. I wanted to comply with her wishes, I really did, but in that hospital ER I just couldn't bring myself to do it.

At that time she was fairly coherent, but not very mobile. If she would have passed a psych test... I don't know. After about a year in the home she passed away. She steadily got worse, physically and mentally. After a while I don't think she even knew who we were. And I would say that to my sisters in law who didn't visit as much and they'd come visit and she'd be really lucid (and I sounded like a harpy).

When my father in law got sick, they did try many medical procedures and drugs to counteract the illness, but eventually nothing worked. It was more prolonged than I would want to deal with for myself, but the doctors complied with his living will and so did the family.

I send ~~vibes~~
This is a really tough subject to live through.
I stand by this 110%:

quote:

Originally posted by Smaug:
You wouldn't do it to a cat or a dog, why the hell do you do it to a human?

quote:

I'm listening, belatedly, to Terry Pratchett's Richard Dimbleby Lecture Shaking Hands With Death, on what is usually called "assisted suicide" and what he calls "assisted death". It's only available on iPlayer for the rest of today - please, go download it now, while you have the chance.

Unfortunately I didn't see this until today, so didn't get to grab it. I wonder if there's any other way to grab it?

[ETA] I think I just found and am currently downloading an RAR file that hopefully has it in it. Stay tuned!

[ETA] Well that sucks. Apparently it downloaded just fine, but Quicktime doesn't want to play it, and I have no idea how to make it work (not the RAR file, but the MPEG4 file)

This message has been edited. Last edited by: JP,

It appears to be on YouTube!

quote:

Originally posted by cloverheart:
There is however another side of things. I read some time ago in the Guardian a piece written by a guy whose mum was going to have an assisted suicide because she had some terminal illness and she didn't want to die in pain. Although the guy acknowledged his mother's reasons to go, and understood and respected them, he also had very conflicted emotions about it, because after all this was his mother who was choosing to go "before her time" and he couldn't help but feel she was abandoning them, in a way. It must have been painful to know that, from a certain day and a certain time onwards, your mother is no more.

(Edited for emphasis).

I remember when my Mom lost the use of her arms, and I remember being horrified that she didn't have the option to kill herself any more. I would certainly have done so years earlier if I were in her shoes. I was scared she'd have to ask me to help her die at some point in the future, and I was more scared that I wouldn't be able to bring myself to do it.

Four years later, she told me that she was going to stop reminding the heathcare aids to feed her, to stop fighting to stay alive. She'd been immobile for a long time, and had almost lost the use of her voice. She felt like, at that point, she was starting to lose some of her mental ability, and she couldn't handle that. She died three months later.

"Conflicted Emotions" is putting it mildly.

That said, if assisted death were a legal option in the states, I would have had about half as much to freak out about in the situations described above. I do hope it becomes legal.

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Originally posted by Lan Martak:
If I can no longer swallow or go into cardiac arrest I just want to be made as comfortable as possible and allowed to die naturally.

I think everyone would want this, but the problem I see is that dying naturally is, more often than not, extremely painful and sometimes even degrading. A very close and dear friend of the family was diagnosed with terminal cancer (it was everywhere) and was sent home. But dying naturally for him didn't mean lying in his bed until his time came, it meant one day suddenly half his body was paralysed, and his daughters had even more trouble than before taking care of him, until the paralysis affected his lung and his face, so he had to be taken into hospital, where he lay until his death and we never knew if he could see or hear us or understand what was going on, because the doctors never knew whether it was just facial muscles that were immobile or maybe he really wasn't aware of anything. His daughters would read poetry to him, stroke his hair and arms. The last time I saw him I was so shocked at his appearance I literally almost fainted. He didn't look like any human being should look, and he didn't look like my friend.
I think if assisted suicide had been possible, he'd have chosen to go a bit earlier than he did, at home, with his mental faculties intact.

Poor guy. I'm sorry Clover