First, im a great fan of NG. Think hes the most original storyteller around.

Read Coraline and basically loved it as I do all his stuff. But a few questions keep popping up, which ill get to. And does anyone else feel his work of late reminds them of a rock group who come out with a killer first record and seem to go downhill displaying less effort with subsequent releases. Like the attitude: whatever I put it is going to be good. Sandman to neverwhere to american gods. I see a downward trend there.

Anyway, Coraline seems very thin to me in many ways. Coraline, i dont think is a well drawn character. I really dont know anything about her. She doesnt have enough of an attitude when important th ings happen to her. He seems to have tried to make her morally sound, but she comes off to me as bratty and annoying when she doesnt like her fathers custom meals. And when she feels bored around the house. I think what im getting at is i didnt feel sorry enough for Coraline in the beginning to justify how she treated her real parents. As i said she just came off to me as bratty.

My next big problem with the story is why did all this happen? Why this house? why coraline? Why the other mother and father. Really none of these questions are answered which to me adds to the thin-ness of the story. I know its a kids story, but still. Any thoughts?†

Well, about Coraline and her father's meals... she's a kid, and kids like pizaa and hot dogs and the prepared stuff, not home made fine food. I was like that, most kids are. Her behaviour is typical kid behaviour, being bored and bothering her parents and complaining. She might look annoying , she was to me a bit, but also I could remember when I felt like that.
About Coraline not being well drawn, well, thinking now about Roald Dahl and Alice in Wonmderland -which the books has been compared to even if I dont completely agree-, the kids in those stories are not well drawn either. Maybe kids just like to hear a story that happens to a kid, but dont need to know about the kid and his motivations as we do, maybe becasue they can understand things as they happen without wondering why.

Coraline reminded me a lot of my daughter who rather eat frozen pizza than my fancy home cooked meals and is often bored and wants to be entertained. I guess in having my own bratty child I could feel sympathy for Coraline and did feel there was enough personality to satisfy me.

As for a downhill trend, I don't agree. Different fans are moved by different stories. My favorite was Stardust, Perhaps yours was Neverwhere, and someone elses would be American Gods. Coraline was a childs story and is a favorite of my sons. So to each thier own. I enjoy Neils work and don't share your views that there's a downhill trend.



"All~this~world~is~but~a~play.Be~thou~a~joyful~player!"

Forgot about the downward trend-
I did think that when I read AMerican Gods -I liked it, but I felt it was sort of decaffeinated, like a Gaiman product for people not familiar with Gaiman.
But i like Coraline a lot. Of course, it's different from the other books, so you might like it more or less.
And let's not forget that Sandman is the work of ten years. Preludes and NMocturne,s which I liked, is not that brilliant on its own. But the entire corpus is, because gaiman had the time to elaborate as much as he wanted, and to go back and fill in any gap he wanted to. Imagine Neil had written the story he wanted to tell in American Gods the way he wrote Sandman -it would have been different, probably mroe complex.

points well taken.

of course the downward trend i referred to is MY opinion, and im sure others would disagree.

But I the fact that american gods was compared to a decaf gaiman is accurate for me. I think it was an idea gaiman was in love with and he wrote a book he loved—which is fine—but, it may turn out its a book the rest of us find convoluted, at least i did. Really I thought American gods was kind of boring. It ran long and not much happened. Half way through i got the idea that shadow was going to be jesus—and I liked that idea more than what actually happened.

I wish he would would write more stuff like murder mysteries, which is probably the most original creative story I can think of.

Shadow was not jesus. What he went through was closer to what Odin himself had been through. The symbolism of being nailed to a tree and left there far predates christianity and the metaphore Gaiman was working is a good deal deeper and more subtle than Shadow-as-christ.
imho.

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jello.
aka aron.

I think what you have to keep in mind here is that this was written not only with children in mind. Specifically his own daughters to be exact.

Which may be why the kids come across as stilted to you--you certainly do not view the world the same way they do. All the things that bother her and the way she acts are actually things that most kids do and think. Unless they are mutant space babies.

With 6 kids I can say with some authority that the whole "recipe" thing and her disdain for her father's efforts is as normal as normal gets. I cannot count the number of times I have made an extra effort (because I like to cook) that was suspiciously poked at by the children and the following requests for mac and cheese and hotdogs...

It's a kid thing. As is the boredom.

The other thing is that it is a fairy tale. Over explanation of the "why" of everything would detract from its nature. Also, the house? Many elements in the house are taken from his own home at the time he started writing. Because he thought his kids would get a kick out of it.

If any of you are really interested there is an actual discussion with him going on right now on www.well.com .It is listed on the front page. If you want some of these questions answered by him it might be a good idea to go over there and email the host and ask them.

Then come back here and muse.

Sorry, I actually posted this on a different topic but I feel the same way about the "downward spiral" opinion:

Stories, like people, have different voices, different accents. Many authors, even the most notable, take a story and tell it with the same voice. Who would not recognize upon reading a sentence, Hemmingway, Tolkien, or Bradbury. They tell different tales, but they sound the same. Neil gives the story more freedom, both in medium and in voice. "Neverwhere" reads simple and fast like an excited child relating a recent adventure, while the sweet and elegant prose of "Stardust" sets us softly down in the shady wood of a twilit land. "American Gods" is an adult novel with a grown-up voice, and "Coraline" is a child. And just as a child loves to be read to, "Coraline" loves to be read aloud. I watched Neil read it aloud, and was entranced. When I picked up a copy my eyes wanted to race hungrily across the page, like I would read a novel, but the words became flat and lifeless. I stopped and began to read it aloud to myself and the story came alive. "Coraline", is like a play, a poem, or a song. You cannot rush through it because it longs to be performed, and only then can you appreciate the artistry.

Neil's writing has changed over the course of time as he experiments with different styles and mediums, and matures as a writer. I think it will be most interesting to read "Endless Nights", it will be the first time he really returns to the world and medium of Sandman that he left ten years ago. I wonder just how different it will be.

Kathryn

if your going to respond please read the whole post. I didnt say shadow was jesus, i said… ah for crying out loud. read my note again.

still on the subject of coraline. Ok youve convinved me with the fact that coralines attitude about the food thing is accurate. Six kids, you must know. But I dont think a commercial writer writes books to satisfy his kids and writes about rooms and places in the house that only they would recognize. that would just be plain stupid. Neil knows theres alot riding on this book, or else why the elaborate promotional website.

and books are not meant to be read aloud thats why there on the printed page and not the stage. all these sound like justifications of a thin story. Again just my opinion.

believe me, i still think hes the best around.

Plain House:

The ordinariness of the house is an instrinsic part of the story itself. The house is a normal, boring house, Coraline is a normal, boring, intelligent, and sometimes bratty girl. The "Other Mother" is a predator, like a spider. There is nothing magical about the branches of a tree that a spider chooses to build a web in, it is just a tree, in which the spider thinks it can catch insects. The house is like the tree.

Coraline is the insect, the food, they prey. She is not preyed upon because she is (as some of Neil's other characters are) a god, a vortex, a fallen star, the antichrist, or an angel. She's nothing special, just a girl, a fly.

That is the nature of the story. The whys are not explained because they are not important to the story, they are not important to Coraline who is only concerned with saving her family. It would be extraneous. I don't think the story would be as potent if the story was complicated.

I mean Coraline could be the last surviving daughter of the arch enemy of the spider woman who is being raised by normal parents, but the normal parents were tricked into moving into a new flat by a strange set of events put in motion by the spider woman herself, and the flat isn't really a flat but a portal to the spider woman's world and when Coraline realizes who she is she knows she must find the secret Talisman that will take her to Mars to find the lost city of her father.....

but that would defeat the purpose of writing a simple, creepy, children's story

Kathryn

"But I dont think a commercial writer writes books to satisfy his kids and writes about rooms and places in the house that only they would recognize. that would just be plain stupid. Neil knows theres alot riding on this book, or else why the elaborate promotional website."

Ummmmm, Harper-collins and authorweb probably had more to do with the elaborate website than Neil had as far a direct design goes.

As for the rest, why he wrote the book, the rooms, doors and mirrors etc...? Those are things that he said:

"I thought
it would be good to write Holly a story (this was in about 1991). I ran
out of time in 1992. Wrote another page or so over the course of the
next 5 years and restarted it in 1998, realising that if I didn't I
would have missed the opportunity to write a story for Maddy and for
Holly."

and

"So there wasn't really any plan to write a "classic children's
fantasy". It was just this odd thing I was doing for my kids when I
wasn't doing something else, which was most of the time.
"

Just to prove one thing. For the rest I heartily encourage you to go here and read the whole conversation:

http://www.well.com/conf/inkwell.vue/

As for why writers write, well, you might be surprised. Having made a little money writing I can say that for most of us the money is a good thing but that isn't necessarily the motivation. I wouldn't confuse the promotional endeavors of the publisher with why something gets written. Money, while it pays the bills, makes a poor muse.

quote:

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if your going to respond please read the whole post. I didnt say shadow was jesus, i said… ah for crying out loud. read my note again.

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rereads

Whoops, sorry. I mis-read the original comment. Sorry.. a touch overzealous from some previous debates on that exact topic. My fault.

quote:

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But I dont think a commercial writer writes books to satisfy his kids and writes about rooms and places in the house that only they would recognize. that would just be plain stupid. Neil knows theres alot riding on this book, or else why the elaborate promotional website.

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Neil isn't a "commercial writer". He is a writer, period. Most authors write books for themselves and their loved ones. The "good" ones just happen to do so in such a way that lots of other people enjoy those stories as well. That is not to say he never intended to publish the work, he is a professional author but the idea and the process was to write something his daughter would like. King did the same with Eyes of the Dragon. And yes, the room with the door to nowhere is the drawing room in a house he lived in as a child. He has said so many times.

As for the site... that's all the publisher.

quote:

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and books are not meant to be read aloud thats why there on the printed page and not the stage. all these sound like justifications of a thin story. Again just my opinion.

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Some are better that way. Coraline was planned to be out in audio form for months prior to the paper release, but schedules changed. Pick up the CD, or go to a childrens book reading. A good reader can bring a magic to a tale, particularly one of this nature, that is hidden in the hard lines of text.

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jello.
aka aron.

I appreciate everyones points, they are all valid and intelligently argued.

I just dont agree with most of them.

Seriously, how am i supposed to know all these intimate secrets about neils work. I see his book in the store i buy it and read it. Im reviewing on that basis. I dont know its supposed to be an audio book, its about a door in his house, it was written for his kids, c’mon. The average reader doesnt know this stuff.

I know we would all love to believe that neil gaiman is an artistic, literary mind who would write even if not a single soul ever read his work. And thats probably true to some degree. He would write because hes a writer.

But this idea that he has nothing to do with the website—its all the publisher—is kind of crazy. I work in the publishing field. Theyre interested in one thi ng: selling books. They promote neil gaiman because he can sell books. They dont promote him because Linda the young romantic editor really truly believes in his work and will put her reputation on the line just so a true talent will be recognized. He se l ls books, period. If he didnt you wouldnt see the big neil gaiman book stand at barnes and nobles. Neil too wants to sell books, and he uses the website as promotional tool very well. I would do the same thing.

But jello, my man, come on—neil is nt a commercial writer. Give me a break.

maybe we have different definitions of what a commercial writer is. Mine is someone whos work appeals to a very large range of people. Someone whos work is sell-able to a very large number of people.

one more th ing on the downward spiral—and this happened to king as well. When you write dark, adult fantasy and build up an audience and then write a childrens book your going to upset a few fans and possibly loose a few fans. Im not saying im in that group. But since neil didnt write a great dark fantasy novel which hes capable of I need to look elsewhere to find my fix. I dont read king anymore because he used to write great horror books and now he writes psuedo-horror books about old people.›

[This message was edited by the BEAR on August 14, 2002 at 03:27 PM.]

Ummmm....

They aren't intimate secrets? And they are elsewhere on the web? And you asked so we were telling you? No one expected you to know which is why we told you? It is also why I pointed you in the direction of where you could read it for yourself?

The publisher promotes the book because the publisher wants to make a profit and recoup expenses. Period. The content of the website is mostly decided on by the publisher and provided by the publisher. To the degree that say Neil cannot just decide to put up a link to his favorite online bookseller because the publisher doesn't want to piss off any of the book vendors out there.

Neil's job is to write, meet his contract deadlines and conditions and promote his book through online interviews and booksignings and readings etc... A promotional web site such as this one is not exactly under his control. Or at least that is the way it usually works. The site doesn't belong to him...it belongs to the publisher.

Of course he wants to sell books but usually authors get told "Okay, you are going to promote this book this way and here is your itinerary." Authors like him who have a body of work under their belt and are as active in damn near everything as he is just simply don't have the time or most likely the inclination to oversee something like the Coraline promotional site. This would be why they leave it up to the people who make their living doing such things.

quote:

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Originally posted by the BEAR:
Im not saying im in that group. But since neil didnt write a great dark fantasy novel which hes capable of I need to look elsewhere to find my fix. [This message was edited by the BEAR on August 14, 2002 at 03:27 PM.]

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Neils has a wide range of fans and he can't please all of them all of the time. I personally don't read his work because of his ability to write a dark fantasy. Sometimes his work has been a little to dark for me. Which doesn't stop me from being intrigued by his work.

I like the way he weaves Mythology, folktales, and history into his work and the feel of magic to his story telling.

What seems like a downward slope to you is like a light in the darkness to fans like me. I like The tales he spins and look forward to more.

Perhaps another tale he weaves in the future will be the Darkness you have a taste for and one I won't care to read but even if I don't like the next book it won't be like a down hill slope to me because I know he has other fans with different tastes to appeal to.



"All~this~world~is~but~a~play.Be~thou~a~joyful~player!"

They aren't intimate secrets? And they are elsewhere on the web? And you asked so we were telling you? No one expected you to know which is why we told you? It is also why I pointed you in the direction of where you could read it for yourself?

sure, your right, they arent intimate secrets. But my point was for the guy who just sees the book in the store and buys it and doesnt seek out every interenet piece of minutae on Gaiman and isnt privy to this stuff, for that guy, he takes the book at face value. He only knows whats between the pages. So to say Neil wrote THIS because of THESE reasons and you can read what he said about it here, is kind of meaningless. If the story doesnt stand on its own without me knowing all this backstory on why the book was written, then whats the point?

I shouldnt have to know all that stuff to “get” the story. Matter of fact I dont want to know that stuff, because that means Im not getting the whole story within the pages.

ya see what im sayin?

For pity's sake ( which i always thought was a weird expression, but anyway) ITS A BOOK!! I read hundreds of books a year, Neil's my favorite, but really now~ it is just a book. IF you didn't like it, bear, thats cool, but lets not get irrate over it. Everyone has different views on which of Neil's stuff is best, so you are entitled to your ideas. I personally thought it was a lovely little book. But thats just me.

quote:

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Seriously, how am i supposed to know all these intimate secrets about neils work. I see his book in the store i buy it and read it. Im reviewing on that basis. I dont know its supposed to be an audio book, its about a door in his house, it was written for his kids, c’mon. The average reader doesnt know this stuff.

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I didn't say they were supposed to. You said: "But I dont think a commercial writer writes books to satisfy his kids and writes about rooms and places in the house that only they would recognize". I'm simply pointing out that according to the author, that is exactly what he did. I don't think it's a far fetched idea at all. I've created art and music that was purely for the enjoyment of myself and my friends, often involving very obscure injokes simply to show to them and laugh. Some of these I later showed to more people, most of whom didn't 'get' key aspects but possibly enjoyed it none the less.

quote:

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I know we would all love to believe that neil gaiman is an artistic, literary mind who would write even if not a single soul ever read his work. And thats probably true to some degree. He would write because hes a writer.

But jello, my man, come on—neil is nt a commercial writer. Give me a break.

maybe we have different definitions of what a commercial writer is. Mine is someone whos work appeals to a very large range of people. Someone whos work is sell-able to a very large number of people.

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That first paragraph in the quote there is what I mean by a writer, as opposed to a commercial writer. The people who write trashy true-crime novels highlighting the crime of the week are commercial writers. They are writing to make a buck. I feel, truly, that Neil writes because he loves to create. Granted, because he can make a living doing it he probably does it a lot more than he might otherwise, but selling the stories is not the motivation for their creation.

quote:

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But since neil didnt write a great dark fantasy novel which hes capable of I need to look elsewhere to find my fix.

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This is completely true. He didn't write a great dark fantasy novel. That isn't what Coraline is supposed to be. It's a childrens book. The problem here seems to be a rift between what you desire the work to be and what the work actually is, as opposed to any flaw in the work itself. If I walk into a Ingmar Bergman film when I'm in the mood for Star Wars I'm not going to enjoy myself. That isn't because the Bergman picture is bad, it's because I walked into the wrong theater.

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jello.
aka aron.

quote:

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Originally posted by the BEAR:
sure, your right, they arent intimate secrets. But my point was for the guy who just sees the book in the store and buys it and doesnt seek out every interenet piece of minutae on Gaiman and isnt privy to this stuff, for that guy, he takes the book at face value. He only knows whats between the pages. So to say Neil wrote THIS because of THESE reasons and you can read what he said about it here, is kind of meaningless. If the story doesnt stand on its own without me knowing all this backstory on why the book was written, then whats the point?

I shouldnt have to know all that stuff to “get” the story. Matter of fact I dont want to know that stuff, because that means Im not getting the whole story within the pages.

ya see what im sayin?

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I have read Neils work for years without internet access. I never needed the internet to explain anything and never even FAQ'd a question to him since I've finally been on the net, these past few months. I didn't even need the net to understand Coraline.

As a mother, in just reading it, I could tell it was for his daughters. With his daughters aside I could tell it was a faery tale for children and had no problem fallowing the story and understanding it. In my eyes, the story stands on its own and didn't have to be read out loud to me. It didn't scare me, and I'm ok with that. It's not my favorite but it was worth the money I paid for it because my children and I loved it and it got my children to read. During a time when children get lost in vidio games and hooked on tv. More good authors should take the time to write for children. I admire him for that.



"All~this~world~is~but~a~play.Be~thou~a~joyful~player!"

thanks for everyones responses.

And yeah I tend to over-analyze things, its my nature. Im merely playing devils advocate to see what type of truths we can get at about neils work, because I think its so good and deserves to be looked at with a close eye as well as for pure enjoyment.

But seriously I truly liked coraline and all of neils work.

But Ill stick to my guns about the downward spiral. I guess I wished neil were more prolific.

And Im note irrate over anything. I just have strong opinions. Im italian, we always think were right.