Was czernovik (the bonker) supposed to have something to do with Bosnia/ Balkans and if so why was he included in the American Gods? I imagine there are a few psychopaths who use that technique, maybe?

Czernobog was a slavic god, yes, Neil talks about him in the blogger, hes an "American God" for the same reason all the other non-american gods ARE american gods, because someone who beleived in him came here and worshipped him here (or maybe just beleived in him here? Dunno... in the book, Odin doesnt come until theres a sacrifice, but what about non blood gods, or gods that dont need sacrifices? Dunno)... is there more to your question I'm missing?

Czernobog is a Slavic god, yes. ALL the Old Ones were gods from other countries who were brought here by immigrants. I believe that's why Czernobog settled in Chicago--lots of people of Slavic descent.
He does represent a dualistic god archetype--his twin is a god of light where he is a god of darkness. Sort of a summer/winter, good/evil thing.

Just to clarify, I think I assumed one of the criteria for being a god was worship, or having affect on, a large number of people (i.e. the tech boy, or lost children- evidenced by missing children on milkboxes). I just haven't heard of a lot of people tapping people on the head.

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Originally posted by skiankook:

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Well, like I said, I dunno... was that how people worshipped him? Also, of course hes not being worshipped now, but he was then, at least as recently as his own work in the slaughterhouse, right? If Loki can dedicate a sacrifice, so can Czernobog.... Also, was your Czernovik because thats an alternate spelling you know, or because you didnt remember the right spelling? just FYI if its the latter, sic means that the apparent typo was intended and is an exact copy from some source, usually referenced... if you're not sure about spelling, i think online etiquitte (or my version of it anyway) is to put (sp?) afterwards...

Czernobog wasn't worshipped by people being "tapped" on the head. Czernobog was worshipped by people taking other people out to a "sacred place" and whacking them in the back of the head with a bloody great rock and killing them, to borrow a phrase from our U.K. friends. Human sacrafice. That's why he got a job in the slaughterhouse and wanted to kill Shadow that way, it reminded him of old times when he was powerful. That's why he went to that field to get a little power for the final battle - some of his worshippers from the old country were killing vagrants and tourists there a long time ago, and Czernobog extracted the last little bit of lingering power from the dead spirits there.

Just an interesting bit...if any of you have seen the original "Fantasia" and remember the demon in "The Sacred and the Profane"...well, that's Czernobog.

As to the idea that not many people worshipped Czernobog, that would be true of many god/esses today. But they are probably still kept alive by the groups who used to worship them, as well as by mythology and comparative religion scholars. So, Slavs might still tell stories about their old ones. That's how I learned a lot about Norwegian gods--my great-grandma used to tell me stories. She didn't worship them, but her family had kept the stories alive. And now I can pass them on.
The reason that the Old Ones were fearful of the New Gods is because we (modern society) are more familiar with them, thus perhaps giving them an edge.
Isn't that sequence in Fantasia creepy? But cool.

Are you thinking about the war criminal Dinko Sakic? I remember it was mentioned a few years back, when the little monster was extradited from our country (Argentina) that one of his favorite activities was riding his horse with a big mace and crushing the brains out of any prisoner not fast enough to run away (this was in the concentration camp of Jasenovac, run by the Croatian puppet Nazi state). Of course, he was a catholic and anti-serb, so I doubt he ever thought (or planned to) he was imitating Czernobog.

Here's something confusing. According to legend, Czernobog is the dark side of the coin - the god of destruction, while Bieleobog is the light side - the god of wealth, fertility, etc. Did Czernobog spare Shadow because he (Czernobog) was really, at that point, Bieleobog, when he walked into the apartment? Even though in AG (P456) he says he's still CZ. Or was he just being a kinder(and sated!) god? Was he really two sides of the same coin, so to speak? Especially if he wanted to play white, next time they met.
Also, if AG follows the legend, why did the 3 Zorayas fear for Shadow's life at the end and try to get him to leave? If they were truly the Fates, they should have known what would happen when Czernobog appeared and not have worried.

Remember the seasons were about to change--and thus Czernobog also--that's why the sisters wanted Shadow to wait. But apparently Czernobog softened a little a day ahead of time, and let Shadow off.

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Originally posted by ersatz:
Remember the seasons were about to change--and thus Czernobog also.

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So i guess they were dual identities of the same god - the dark side/light side thing.

Thanks.

You're welcome! But I'm still puzzling over why the sisters didn't know what was in store for Shadow. Any ideas? Maybe, like the Norns (Scandinavian Fates) they weave and reweave people's fates, and so they hadn't finished Shadow's. The Norns are constantly ripping up their threads and redoing them. I don't know much about the Zorya, but geographically they would be pretty close.
Hmmmm...
ersatz

The Zorya were the daughters of the Slavic sun god (Dahzbog)--one, Dawn, would open the gates in the morning, and the other would open them at Twilight, to allow him to ride his sun chariot (like Helios). Hence, one's asleep while the other's awake, etc. (The third is the Moon (or Midnight Star), the "death" of the sun), and less of a factor in this scenario but more powerful, which is why her scene with Shadow is so very moving.) They do have similarities to the Fates (the Zorya, aka the Aurora, were considered manifestations of the Triple Goddess...dawn=daughter, dusk=mother, midnight=crone), but I think it's more thematic than literal, which is why they don't have an actual knowledge of the future (as the Greek Fates proper would) but still introduce Shadow to the potential for his demise..his fate or existence in the temporal world, if you will.

As for the Czernobog/Bielbog duality, the Salvic pagan beliefs were VERY dualistic in this way...not like the Christian dualisms of good vs. evil, but with an understanding, as someone put it, that these are just two sides of the same coin--winter/summer, death/life, dusk/dawn, etc. In the original myth, Czernobog came into being by being the Bieldbog's shadow.

Mind, however, that there are mutiple stories, and all of them are true. Even among all the variations within Norse or Slavic mythologies, a general parallel between the old myths and Shadow current story is ever present.

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Originally posted by tvnewser:
Here's something confusing. According to legend, Czernobog is the dark side of the coin - the god of destruction, while Bieleobog is the light side - the god of wealth, fertility, etc. Did Czernobog spare Shadow because he (Czernobog) was really, at that point, Bieleobog, when he walked into the apartment? Even though in AG (P456) he says he's still CZ. Or was he just being a kinder(and sated!) god?

I think Shadow caught him just when he changed. When Shadow first meets him, he has grey eyes (p 83 of my mass-market paperback). Czernobog himself says that Bielebog has blond hair and blue eyes. When Shadow goes back at the end, he notices that the sun is making Czernobog's hair appear golden, and after Czernobog lets him go, "[h]e looked into the old man's twinkling eyes, and he wondered if they had always been that cornflower shade of blue," (p 583 of my book).

Magill, are you looking at the dates of the threads you're resurrecting?

They were all on the first page, so I figured they couldn't be too old. But yes, after I posted my replies that I realized I was responding to 4+ year old threads.

It's not a problem to do so, by the way, I was just making sure you knew not to expect replies.

Good observation, by the way. I read that line before but didn't know how to interpret it.