dweller in darkness...

i cant help but note the irony in your anti-american statements as you write from your suburban house and computer in concord NH, USA

my grandfather once told me there was a time when my ancestors came to this country that they made it a point to adopt an american attitude. They worked hard to learn english, to find jobs, to participate in democracy, and although they didnt turn a blind eye to their heritage, they left old things behind and they embraced what it meant to be american; because only when people do that can this country really be great.

Is it bad to be critical about the country you live?

In your opinion, is USAnian way of life so great, after all?

Is USA a democracy?

And sure, any country can be great. Is there one only way to do that (refering to the "American" way of life, mostly)?

______________________________
My soul, overflowing with humanity,
can't bare so much injustice.

-- Eduardo Miño

quote:

---

Originally posted by the BEAR:
my grandfather once told me there was a time when my ancestors came to this country that they made it a point to adopt an american attitude. They worked hard to learn english, to find jobs, to participate in democracy, and although they didnt turn a blind eye to their heritage, they left old things behind and they embraced what it meant to be american; because only when people do that can this country really be great.

---

and since when do Americans going other places make the effort to learn the language? I've seen some expect to be understood, and that dollars should be accepted universally. Do you also think that in other countries people do not try to find jobs and participate in democracy? or are all non-Americans just barbarians?
And before you flame me I repeat that I have no particular distaste for America and Americans, but for the opinions some of them hold that they are the single best country in the world.

______________________________________
I danced along a colored wind,
dangled from a rope of sand
You must say goodbye to me
- Tom Waits

and since when do Americans going other places make the effort to learn the language? I've seen some expect to be understood, and that dollars should be accepted universally. Do you also think that in other countries people do not try to find jobs and participate in democracy? or are all non-Americans just barbarians?
And before you flame me I repeat that I have no particular distaste for America and Americans, but for the opinions some of them hold that they are the single best country in the world.

youre missing the point. Why do you live here? Why would you live in a country you thought was not the best place to live.

Anyway the point is: America is an idea. America was generally an experiment. A country without any kind of persecution where a man can truly be free. It didnt say that this worked perfectly. But it worked well enough that thousands of people literally die to get into this country everyday. So its not about what rich, pompous americans do or dont do when visiting other countries—im sure they ARE arrogant and demeaning but they are the minority. Im talking about the everyday working guy with a wife and a house; this man is the overwhelming majority of the american man. The idea of america has to be unified or the idea will fail. Im not saying everyone should be white christians. Im saying everyone should constantly pursue the idea of life liberty and happiness.

And when you have a country where an increasing number of its people dont think they need to learn english, dont need to find a job, or even support the country in which their children get good educations, theres only once place for the country to go: down.

quote:

---

Originally posted by the BEAR:
youre missing the point. Why do you live here? Why would you live in a country you thought was not the best place to live.

---

I live here because I married an American. She does not speak French, and I speak English. I'm looking for a job. I'm ready to pay my taxes, and work for democracy. I don't think the US is a bad place to live at all. I quite like it here. But it's not THE BEST place to be. There is no such thing. The US is obviously much better than a lot of other countries, but claiming it is the single best country in the world is just ridiculous. I'm not saying it's your opinion, but some Americans truly think it.

quote:

---

And when you have a country where an increasing number of its people dont think they need to learn english, dont need to find a job, or even support the country in which their children get good educations, theres only once place for the country to go: down.

---

With that, on the other hand, I fully agree. I wouldn't be living here and not speak English. I want a job, to pay taxes, etc. I entered legally, and am currently in the middle of my adjustment process. The INS is not fun to deal with, but I'm subjecting to it willingly. But I'll send my kids to college in Belgium. The educational system is better. Once again, I don't mean to simplify. It does not imply that Belgium is better than the US. Its EDUCATION is better. The US is better in other aspects.

______________________________________
I danced along a colored wind,
dangled from a rope of sand
You must say goodbye to me
- Tom Waits

quote:

---

Originally posted by the BEAR:
dweller in darkness...

i cant help but note the irony in your anti-american statements as you write from your suburban house and computer in concord NH, USA

my grandfather once told me there was a time when my ancestors came to this country that they made it a point to adopt an american attitude. They worked hard to learn english, to find jobs, to participate in democracy, and although they didnt turn a blind eye to their heritage, they left old things behind and they embraced what it meant to be american; because only when people do that can this country really be great.

---

Hrm. Not writing from my suburban house. Your sources are telling you lies.

And what does the place I'm writing from have to do with saying that I dislike ignorance? How is disliking ignorance "anti-american?"

And your speech, while lacking logic, looked quite pretty. There are a lot of countries with dozens and dozens of ethnic sub-cultures that are thriving just nicely, thanks, without everyone being forced to conform to some abstract idea of "what it means to be American."

Good, my dog found the chainsaw.
-Lilo

count, fair enough.

dweller, my “speech” did not lack in logic. You have a comprehension problem. If you read the first line it says this country meaning america. So the rest of your post is irrelevant, in that, you didnt respond to my post.

I think he refered to other countries and cultures worldwide, not only american.

Your lack of logic comes from defending your country saying that this country is good because people works hard as if USA was the only country that does that. And Dweller replied to that.

The rest of the post is hardly irrelevant.

_____________________________
Some children never learn to smile

By Brian Eno

_____________________________
Some children never learn to smile

Actually, the illogic I spotted, which I ought to have specifically pointed out, in perspective, is the idea that:

". . . when you have a country where an increasing number of its people dont(sic) think they need to learn english, dont(sic) need to find a job, or even support the country in which their children get good educations, theres(sic) only once place for the country to go: down."

1. There are a great many countries where large sections of the population speak only one language and that language is not the country's official language. Canada comes to mind. Seems to not be "going down." I realize that you're talking about only America here, but to claim that this country has unique characteristics that means that it will uniquely suffer as a result of a rather common occurence in the rest of the world requires you to do a bit more than make a bald statement. Otherwise, you're just a bigoted blowhard.

Incidentally, when you use the simple, generic word "country" without making it clear that you mean the one you're living in, most people would assume that you're talking about any country, not just the one you're living in.

2. When you say, "dont(sic) need to find a job," the direct implication is that it's the non-English speakers who are avoiding work. A little simple research would reveal that while the majority of people on unemployment are minorities, a lesser percentage are on welfare. In other words, there are more people apt to speak a language other than English who are looking for work than people who are apt to speak English. And, incidentally, the welfare rolls are nowhere near the highs they reached in the late 70s and early 80s, so the point is, if not illogical, at least fatuous on the face of it, let alone with the implied, "damned immigrants" bigotry.

3. What kind of support? Taxes? Those are involuntary, and we all pay them. Non-citizens even pay for Social Security, which they may never receive.

Military? There hasn't been a draft in years and for good reason. The armed forces are no longer intended to be masses of people against masses of people. It now requires years of training at specialized skills to be good at killing people.

Social? Well, we all have a right to our own opinion, the last I checked. If it's a bad thing to disagree with your government's decisions, then why bother voting at all? Just appoint a dictator. A benevolent one, of course. It's easier, and saves on all those voting scandals.

4. I won't even comment on the "good education in America" idea. It'd just be too easy. If you'd said "adequate education," I'd have no problem.

So, there's your illogic, Bear. Sorry I wasn't clear to start out with.

Good, my dog found the chainsaw.
-Lilo

once again right and impressively well worded Dweller. A few comments: I pay taxes, social security, etc. etc. but I am not allowed to vote, am not eligible for soc. security, or anything...
On education: I will maintain that US education sucks. I know a few Europeans who, after high school, came to the US and studied here for one year (usually last year of US high school). They all came back with tales of how ridiculously easy it was, even taking into account the language barrier. My best friend went to Michigan, he hardly studied and ended up in the top 10 students of his school. And the college system is even worse. In Belgium I paid about $600 a year in tuition fees (not including books), and I had a better education than in most colleges here. Only relevant stuff, for a start (ie, no hard sciences for arts students). No sports, except in Phys. Ed.: you're considered an adult, if you want to exercise you can do it on your own, college time is for studying. The list goes on...
OK, US education is not that bad in a global perspective (ie, it's better than say Nigeria, or Indonesia), but I'm still sending my kids to college in Belgium (after they get preparatory classes to get to the level of Belgian high school graduates).

_________________________________________
It's time to Pooh Bear-ize ourselves!

quote:

---

Originally posted by the BEAR:
America is an idea. America was generally an experiment. A country without any kind of persecution where a man can truly be free. It didnt say that this worked perfectly. But it worked well enough that thousands of people literally die to get into this country everyday.

---

That doesn't necessarily mean the US is THAT great -only that the countries those poor people are coming from are THAT bad to prefer death than staying there... If it's about figures, then Spain would be the very best country in Europe because EVERY DAY hundreds of people from ALL AFRICA try to get in here... It's only coz they escape war, famine, hunger, unemployment, dictatoships...

And btw:

quote:

---

Im talking about the everyday working guy with a wife and a house; this man is the overwhelming majority of the american man.

---

That's "America" for you? Seems like the overwhelming majority of the "American" man does not give a damn about the "American" woman... except as something to have, like a house or a car or a boat. Watch out those wordings -they show out too much.

"the everyday working man with a wife and a house"

as long as the wife stays in the house while the hard-working man goes out to earn the money, and can come back for food and sex?

_________________________________________
It's time to Pooh Bear-ize ourselves!

At least the wife is mentioned before the house... though of cours eit could also be something like "with a wife and a houseto put her in"...

Yeah, let's face it, what have women really contributed. Other than every living human on the face of the earth. Oh, and various scientific advances. The occasional beautiful poem or piece of art. That sort of thing.

Good, my dog found the chainsaw.
-Lilo

yeah but they're not hard-working enough. And they haven't won any war, have they? pfff... worthless, in other words.

_________________________________________
It's time to Pooh Bear-ize ourselves!

well dweller thank you for pointing out my feeble failure to use contractions correctly. Ill try to correct that.

Actually a point of view or opinion can’t be illogical, just as long as my point of view isnt 3+2=6. Logic is correct reasoning, so my opinions are not illogical they are simply my point of view, my way of looking at certain events. What youre doing is setting up a false dilemma, meaning there are only two possible answers here mine or yours, ignoring other possible outcomes, once you put my views down yours must be correct.

If you say the world is round, I say its flat; we are both correct in a sense but who is more correct? You wouldn’t call my point of view that this ground right here is flat illogical. So again my opinion is just that: my opinion and not at all illogical.

Its fine to disagree with me just dont try to bully me with false intellectualizing.

[This message was edited by the BEAR on January 29, 2003 at 01:52 PM.]

Actually, I would argue that the earth, where you live, is curved. It's a slight curve, inarguably, but a curve nonetheless.

If opinions don't have to be hampered by logic, then what good are they? Would it be equally valid for me to say that Bush pushed through his tax relief program because of orange, or that the Bosnian presidents should be released because the Toronto Maple Leafs have lost three in a row? Of course not; intelligent discourse is contingent on, well, intelligence, and some basis in fact, on cause and effect.

As a point of fact, "logic" has its root in the verb "to speak" and the noun meaning "idea" or "word." By definition, language is logical, and so concepts formed by language should also be logical. But, if this is a place where you can have any opinion you choose and expect to be able to hold it without question, without offering support for it or expectation that the views of others might have validity, that's fine. I've no choice but to continue to let you think that.

Incidentally, a "false dillema" only occurs when there is a third option available that is left out of consideration. In other words, "you're either for us or against us" when it is possible to remain a neutral party. Also, the "false dillema" can only be applied to an active proposition.

You said, "be it resolved that not enough immigrants learn English, look for work, support their country or are grateful enough," in essence. I took umbrage at those statements, based not necessarily on their falsity, but on the lack of credulity you gave them. I did not say "be it resolved that enough immigrants learn English . . ." I did not set up a false dillema, I merely questioned the logic of your position.

It's possible that one or more of your points are valid, but you've failed to prove any of them.

Good, my dog found the chainsaw.
-Lilo

[sign alongside road]CAUTION: DO NOT FEED THE TROLL[/sign alongside road]

______________________________
<~real men don't wear dresses~>

you said:
Social? Well, we all have a right to our own opinion, the last I checked. If it's a bad thing to disagree with your government's decisions, then why bother voting at all? Just appoint a dictator. A benevolent one, of course. It's easier, and saves on all those voting scandals.

my friend, I never said arguments shouldnt be logical, im pointing out your fallacies. Youre illegitimate use of “if-then” operator. If its a bad thing…then why bother…. This is a fallacy. voting scandals and the like do not have to be a result of agreeing with the government.