Neil Gaiman www.NeilgaimanBoard.com www.NeilgaimanBoard.com Neil's Other Works American Gods I just don't get it...
www.NeilgaimanBoard.com www.NeilgaimanBoard.com Neil's Other Works American Gods I just don't get it...|
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Member |
I have a very high opinion of Neil Gaiman. I think that his work on Sandman raised the bar in the comic book medium forever after (much as did Alan Moore before him). I've read quite a few of his books, and have thought them to be good, well written stories that just didn't pack the wallop of his graphic novels. When I discovered that American Gods won the Hugo, and the Stoker, and a bunch of other awards, I got excited, thinking to myself that he must have finally locked into some of that old magic and conjured forth into his new preferred medium.
As I worked my way into the novel, I thought that much like my prior opinion, this was well written, but nothing new -certainly not equal to the calibre of the acclaim heaped upon it. As I got further into the pages, I realized that I had just read this story. Only it wasn't a Neil Gaiman book I had read it in. As a matter of fact, I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that American Gods borrows heavily from at least two uncommon-to-obscure books by great pulp writers of the past. The most obvious source of "hommage" is The Deadly Percheron by Frederick Browne. To me it goes beyond a friendly tip of a hat and borders on outright plagiarism. It's shocking, actually. There are also wholesale elements of Fully Dressed And In His Right Mind by Michael Fessier, that should have been accredited. At the very least there should have been a note at the front of the book that somehow paid tribute to the original works. To me it's really odd that the cabal of well-read people who get to hand out awards like the Stoker and the Hugo wouldn't be aware of these previous classics, or would choose to turn a blind eye to these similarities and hand out an award anyway. Neil has long been the golden boy of the modern lit clique within the worlds of fantasy and horror, and I understand that these awards are popularity contests just like the Golden Globes or Oscars, but when Milli Vanilli were caught cheating, the Grammys took their award away. How ironic is it that it was the music industry that recognized the controversy and moved forward with justice on their side? It is my enjoyment of Neil's comic book work that stirs such anger in me that American Gods is, well, so blatantly derivative. I guess I feel that an author with his talent should be above this sort of thing. I would highly recommend obtaining the books I mentioned by Mr. Browne and Mr. Fessier before leaping to comment. As it happens, I had just finished a Frederick Browne reading frenzy before purchasing American Gods, so it was still fresh in my noggin. I was dumbfounded, and still more so by the fact that I've not seen anyone else speak to this. |
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Wigber Member |
"Good artists copy, great artists steal" - Pablo Picasso
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Miss Kitty Fantastico Member  |
Well, I have to leap in and comment that I can't find the first book (either from my library or from Amazon) and the second book is $15. Sorry, but one ranting opinion isn't enough incentive to research supposed similarities.
I don't care how many awards a book, movie or music CD has won - I bought the book merely because Neil Gaiman wrote it. I enjoyed it because it was a good story. I would have thought the end of the world is everyone's responsibility, wouldn't you? ~Death in Thief of Time Minister of Kraftwerk in the Realm of U & P, Order of the Pineapple with frond for advancement in Nap studies. |
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rodentia extraordinarinus Member  |
I didn't even buy it for that - I wouldn't even say I am a 'Gaiman fan' I have far more Ian Rainkin or Lindsey Davis books. I just liked the cover. Like Maeve I can't comment on similarities, but even if it is copied, influenced or whatever, it doesn't impact on how well the book is written. |
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has been eaten by a grue. Member |
additionally, Gaiman may not have been aware of other books. people are remarkably similar, really, and some things are just downright archetypal. whoever portrays the archetype best for our language and time is the one we remember—which is why we read Shakespeare, not Webster or Brooke.
~ We're just babies making up a game, if you're right. But...babies playing a game can make a play-world which licks your real world hollow. That's why I'm going to stand by the play-world. ~ Elite Special Force Procrastinator, trained in High Arts of Extended Coffee Breaks and Master Linguist of the Water Cooler Conversation |
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Member |
There is a belief of a collective concious that, I believe, Bu7dhists will often say that their creativity does not come from them but through them. And people who are thousands of miles apart can come up with nearly identical ideas.
And the other thing I have been pondering all morning long at work is that we have a story of romeo & juliet (yes, my spelling is attrocious! or at least I think so) and yet we have something like West Side Story. Same vein of thought but vastly different eras. But no one, at least that I am aware of, is claiming that there should have been dedications to shakespeare at the begining of West Side Story or any other story that has that angsty our families can't stand each other, so we would rather die than be apart. Funny thing was that while reading American Gods, I thought of Douglas Adams book "Long Dark Tea Time of the Soul". I like the different ways of dealing with the supposed long forgotten gods. I am curious to read the books that were mentioned because they sound like I might enjoy them as well. |
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has been eaten by a grue. Member |
in that vein, from Wikipedia:
~ We're just babies making up a game, if you're right. But...babies playing a game can make a play-world which licks your real world hollow. That's why I'm going to stand by the play-world. ~ Elite Special Force Procrastinator, trained in High Arts of Extended Coffee Breaks and Master Linguist of the Water Cooler Conversation |
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Member |
this is not the only example of 'borrowing' in the hardback world of gaiman.
before i speak on which other book borrowed heavily ...does anybody else feel this way? even the greatest bands re-released songs or even played covers on their albums.it's just part of the creative world.let's face it there's nothing new, just reshaped and different name. |
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rodentia extraordinarinus Member |
very true, and as you say, Lilith, Gaiman isn't the first to talk about old gods - Terry Pratchett was the one I thought of but you're right - Adams did it too, and no doubt others. Panik - when you say 'elements', do you mean strands of plot, general ideas or characters? Could you be more specific - I don't think anyone here's read the books you mentioned. ____________________________________________________ tiny ball of rage. hilarious, condensed rage - Snazz I never really lost my virginity... it just sort of eventually wore off - Chris Addison Um... I'm thinking that a lot of my internal conflict and malaise comes from the tension between the life I ACTUALLY want to live, and the stories I'd love to be able to tell? - T-Rex, qwantz.com |
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Member |
The dwarf/leprechaun character is a total lift -both in personality and style of speech, and the plot points remain similar for a great deal of the novel's length. Ignorance is no excuse, as all artists are accountable for knowing what has preceded them, but I'd be very genuinely surprised to hear that Neil Gaiman had not read Frederick Browne -especially since that particular book is on the Karl Edward Wagner list of ten bests, which I'm sure Neil would have been aware of and done his best to track down. If a band covers a song, the original band gets a royalty check, and the authorship is noted in the publishing info on the disc. West Side Story was literally marketed as "a modern day Romeo & Juliette". Neither of those examples belittles the seriousness of what we're talking about here, which is plagiarism. As for similarities with Douglas Adams -well that at least is well documented (Neil's obsession with Adams work). |
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Firekeeper's Sister Member  |
Huh. I must know several people who have plagiarized their personalities directly from Fredrick Browne, then. Damn derivative human beings.
Ok, that's just bunk. No. If he'd directly lifted passages from someone else's work, then he'd be guilty of something. But it's impossible not to be influenced by things you've read yourself, especially if you love to read. Guess what, though. Gaiman isn't even trying not to be influenced. He uses archetypical storylines and characters recombined into something that hopefully says something new about them. Whether he's always successful in this is certainly debatable, but it damn well isn't plagiarism, any more than you are plagiarizing the last person who accused Neil of plagiarism, which you didn't read but should be magically aware of because of your authorial responsibility, and of which you should be ashamed, ASHAMED, SIR, for ripping off so BALANTLY! Incidentally I'm also suing Joss Whedon for plagiarizing my personality in the creation of River Tam. This message has been edited. Last edited by: VegaRiad, -Natalie ----*-*-*-*---- Not really human, just turns into one on the full moon. I've totally got deviantARTs. (and now I sell t-shirts too  ! www.cafepress.com/teethinthestars ) |
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has been eaten by a grue. Member |
*standing ovation for Natalie*
she's absolutely right. you personally, any more than a published author, a) cannot be aware of every single thing that's ever been written, and you b) cannot consciously remember every single thing you've ever read. and you very clearly have not read your Joseph Campbell. monomyth, ever heard of it? it ain't called the monomyth for nothin'. you'll be hard pressed to find a story that doesn't fit into that archetype in one way or another. we think in archetypes. archetypal characters, archetypal stories. toss me a book, someone can toss one back that preceeds it and mirrors it in creepy, creepy, almost plagiaristic ways. ~ We're just babies making up a game, if you're right. But...babies playing a game can make a play-world which licks your real world hollow. That's why I'm going to stand by the play-world. ~ Elite Special Force Procrastinator, trained in High Arts of Extended Coffee Breaks and Master Linguist of the Water Cooler Conversation |
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Member |
Read THE DEADLY PERCHERON, and then you can discuss this topic intelligently, if not necessarily objectively. |
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Member |
So we have a reading list for discussions with you? Why not just copy-paste the passages alongside whoever he rips off?
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has been eaten by a grue. Member |
she is discussing the topic intelligently. if you want to give us passages from the book that you think are lifted, go ahead. we can't all run out and buy this book or find it in our libraries. if you can't give us any concrete examples of the plagiarism you're alleging, then we'll just have to assume that there aren't any to be given. ~ We're just babies making up a game, if you're right. But...babies playing a game can make a play-world which licks your real world hollow. That's why I'm going to stand by the play-world. ~ Elite Special Force Procrastinator, trained in High Arts of Extended Coffee Breaks and Master Linguist of the Water Cooler Conversation |
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Great wyrm of Toronto Member  |
As others, and even you yourself have mentioned these books aren't exactly the easiest to obtain, nevermind look at.
So I have to join everyone else when I say, post some examples if it is at all possible. And then we can continue this. This message has been edited. Last edited by: Mythos, ______________________________ Do not leave me with a bowl of anything for an extended period of time. |
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Firekeeper's Sister Member |
What will I find if I read it? What's in it that will make me discuss topics as intelligently as you? Do you possibly mean "informed," rather than "intelligent?" Cause there's no book out there that'll cure stupid, and if that's what I am, that's how I'm staying, no matter what you tell me to read. If you mean to cure ignorance rather than stupidity, though, it would help if you posted some excerpts. I am interested, though, particularly since you're saying the author is so similar to Neil. Of course, I'm often frustrated by books that others have derived stories from; I find that the later authors' works are almost invariably better. -Natalie ----*-*-*-*---- Not really human, just turns into one on the full moon. I've totally got deviantARTs. (and now I sell t-shirts too ! www.cafepress.com/teethinthestars ) |
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Administrator/Colporteur Member  |
I've read a fair bit by Bardin, and while I haven't read the specific book under discussion I agree that stylistically and grammatically, Neil's very similar to Bardin in parts, and they he borrows themes, characters and plot elements from Bardin's work.
Which is what you do when you make a story. There's somewhere between two and nine different stories you can tell - I hold that there's only two, the stranger coming to town or someone coming home with variations on the theme - and sometimes when you write a story it's an homage, sometimes it's a pure accident. And Neil's the sort of person who'se been very public very frequently that if he writes good fiction, it's because he writes on the shoulders of giants. __________ AJGraeme "You see, I have a policy about honesty and ass-kicking: if you ask for it, I have to let you have it." -Taylor Mali "Science is the foot that kicks magic square in the nuts." -Scratch Fury |
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rodentia extraordinarinus Member |
Well then I hope you've read every post on this board to make sure you haven't duplicated any of them  I can't decide if you're crazy, playing, or stupid and arrogant. ____________________________________________________ tiny ball of rage. hilarious, condensed rage - Snazz I never really lost my virginity... it just sort of eventually wore off - Chris Addison Um... I'm thinking that a lot of my internal conflict and malaise comes from the tension between the life I ACTUALLY want to live, and the stories I'd love to be able to tell? - T-Rex, qwantz.com |
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Member |
i think the laws that govern music copyrights, should be adapted to books.
in the sense that in music there is , a beat that can only be similiar for 3 to 5 seconds and that it encompasses more than the beat also. the only reason that i state this now is because of the earlier comment on ' Well then I hope you've read every post on this board to make sure you haven't duplicated any of them because, in music if an ice cream man copyrights a jingle in NEW DEHLI, you better not come anywhere close to it in MEXICO CITY , otherwise you may have a lawyer at your door faster than you can say anything condesending(and around these parts that's really fast). |
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