Seriously... from what i remember, the gods of TV and Internet and all that were portrayed pretty negativly. TV, sure... but i love my Internet, and i figure the Gibson god's gonna rule all someday, so ya gotta respect...

(its 3am... i'm working the overnight shift, alone with the BBC and the 'net... so my brain's not going too well. and i love sci-fi)

Just because they are all in some essence corrupted and manipulated by very mortal humans.

For myself, I don't think it was hating so much as just looking at it from your opponent's point of view. After all, Shadow is our eyes in this story, and he is the bodyguard for the leader of the opposition to the technology gods. It's kind of natural that he isn't thinking of a ton of complimentary things to say to them.

If gods are "created" by their worshippers, then these new gods are likely to be lowest-common-denominator views of their areas of control.

So Media represents the prevailing view of the Media - shallow, manipulative, etc. And the average U.S. citizen loves technology - but doesn't trust it worth spit.

My take, anyhoo ...

- Cho

This reminds me of something I thought about in an early reading: I was thinking about the duality where all of the old Gods are people, while the new ones are pretty much exclusively concepts.

But then it occurred to me that the old gods began as a concept, and were given humanizing touchs, whether it be personailty, purprose, etc.

With the new gods, that is rather lacking. We may indeed enjoy the fruits of technology, indeed we do so on an everyday basis, but we are hard pressed to give them those personalizations. It would be most difficult indeed to ever credit most of the gods who would arise from technology with being noble, or honorable, or wise, or compassionate, or loving, or idealistic or really possessing many, if any of the finer characteristics of human beings.

At the current moment, (until a true AI is created), that is the failure of technology, and the failure of the tech gods in AG.

hmmm... yea, i getcha.

tech would be a capricious god, i guess... who can grant you great boons, but frustruate the hell out of you with astonishing regularity.

actually, i read about a Japanese webcomic thing that personalizes operating systems and browsers and stuff as young girls with personalities based on the OSes... its like that, i aguess

Was that webcomic similar to Lain?

I think that part of the progression of technology is the ever increasing dissociation people experience.

Actually, I was thinking about this last night. I was reading Tolstoy and the character had come to the conclusion that new methods only worked to the extent that the operators were comfortable with them... interesting to think about...

quote:

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Originally posted by Ronin:
With the new gods, that is rather lacking. We may indeed enjoy the fruits of technology, indeed we do so on an everyday basis, but we are hard pressed to give them those personalizations. It would be most difficult indeed to ever credit most of the gods who would arise from technology with being noble, or honorable, or wise, or compassionate, or loving, or idealistic or really possessing many, if any of the finer characteristics of human beings.

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i think i disagree... think about techie stereotypes of Mac, Linux, and Microsoft. Macs are user-friendly and inviting; the design inspires a cult of personality and leads to serious loyalty (there's a book out now called 'The Cult of Mac'). Think of it as idealized Christianity-- a warm and loving god

Linux is 'good', but not centralized, obviously... anything open-source is usually done by the good guys

Microsoft is the Devil or the Old Testament god-- to get it to do anything, you need to deal with hassle and sacrifice and all that.

hell, i've heard many people refer to Steve Jobs as 'God' and Bill Gates as 'Satan'... there's definate personification... and if you disagree, my iPod will be sad

quote:

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Originally posted by Chomiji:
...[T]he average U.S. citizen loves technology - but doesn't trust it worth spit.

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I think this is an important point. I also think our perspective as readers is equally important. It made sense to me that Odin and Kali were "cooler" because for me, old/traditional/ancient = status/deserving of power/forgiveness of personal shortcomings.

And speaking of shortcomings, LoT, who's saying that the other Gods were "positive"? I'll give it to you they were generally portrayed "better," but Czernobog was a bitter old man who would bash your head in over checkers until you got to know him. Among other things, America's Odin was manipulative and cunning, and nearly fucked everyone.

Like money in aristocratic societies, I think the only real difference for me between the Gods' personalities was that the new ones were new, and the old ones were old.

quote:

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Originally posted by Talula:

quote:

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Originally posted by Chomiji:
...[T]he average U.S. citizen loves technology - but doesn't trust it worth spit.

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I think this is an important point. I also think our perspective as readers is equally important. It made sense to me that Odin and Kali were "cooler" because for me, old/traditional/ancient = status/deserving of power/forgiveness of personal shortcomings.

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ahhhh... i getcha. whereas i've been on a tech kick lately... and 'tech' = Matrix/cyberpunk/ Apple stuff

but i get your point...
hmm... you know there's a book called 'The Cult of Mac'? And lots of people consider Apple a cult? Might be a good idea for a short AG story, since Neil has an iPod.

....

no, its a stupid idea. but i felt like mentioning it anyway

but yea, i agree. tech is generally cool, but its often frusturating and hard to understand... you have to perform strange operations and get the mediations of priests (programmers)... so its alot like the old gods, worshiped through sacrifice and fear

Just a quick point. The story needs an antagonist. So I guess Neil just picked the new gods to fill this role. Even though it is revealed that Odin is in fact the antagonist by the end.

Also, as others have pointed out, the reader is looking through Shadows eyes for the most part. Who knows, maybe the old gods somehow threaten the new gods? Maybe, ultimatley, the battle between the new and the old is just something that has to happen, and has happened in the past. If you study ancient myth many cultures believe that the current pantheon of gods toppled or destroyed the gods that came before them. This is a common theme from the Norse and the Celts, to the Greeks and even the Japanese. It becomes apparent by the end when Shadow meets the other Odin that the "old" gods in America may in fact not be the origional gods, but rather copies of gods created by the first immigrants to North America. So in that sense, maybe the new gods, which exist because a diffirent culture exists now, are just fullfilling their role to topple the old powers.

Another intresting point, would Shadow be considered a new god or an old god? Assuming he is in fact a god (which I do).

Mainstream television and internet don't exactly endorse the model of wholesome behavior and values... While I can hardly speak against the internet seeing as I am on it, I definetely am no fan of television and Hollywood movies. Most technology brings as much distraction and unpleasantry as good.

no offense, but i don't think a guy who's written alien sex stories is endorsing 'wholesome behavior and values'

I think its also worth mentioning, that most of the Gods come across as pretty unpleasant. A power corrupts thing?

I never felt like he was hating on technology. It felt more like he was portraying them in a pitying, but not friendly, light. Even the old gods, as well.

The further you get into the story, the more I pitied the new gods, as well as the old. They all seemed so desprate. It wasn't until the end that they gained some dignity, and that was only after walking away from the fight.

I mean, even Web-boy got some of my respect, albeit just a little for feeling so horrible about what he did to Sheeba. That one line about how he threw himself against the wall was so sad...

So, yeah, not hating, but definatly pity.

Any antipathy is only a story device of Gaiman's. In real life, many of the gods very much embrace technology. Odin and Loki do certainly, as do gods like Flora (not in the story).

huh? explain...

In real life, one of Odin's driving motivations seems to be the acquisition of knowledge, by any means whatsoever. This is also reflected in ancient lore too. So it comes as no surprise that in real life he gets encourages his followers to be involved with technology. And he's not alone in doing that it seems.

Technology is put in the position of antagonist, so we see more of its fualts. I don't think it is any worse than the other gods. They all seek power, and they all compromise our ideals for it.

The other thing that using technology as an antagonist does is to show up its transience. The technogods are shown as insecure for they know they too will soon be forgotten. But, like I say, this antagonism seems to be only a story device.