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The "I Believe" speech...
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Killed for that? Nah.

In some ways, you are right. She, herself, I don't think was important - except as Hinzelman's tool to get Shadow out of the town. What is important is what she was to Shadow. The fact that he thought to go give her flowers at the end means that she did, indeed, touch his life. She meant something to him - maybe family? A part of his 'tribe' perhaps?

She might even be the next 'Shadow' - didn't she meantion having dreams of a bird-woman? One that appeared in Shadow's dream? She might be The Land's next savior.

I think the "I believe" speech, while cool, seems a bit impractical and possibly cliched, but I still liked it. (I never could figure out why cliches seems to have such a bad rep)

Jaer
 
Posts: 2268 | Location: Newark, DE, USA | Registered: July 09, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I'm not sure why cliches get such a bum rap..sometimes a cliche is the best way to say it. I suppose it has to do with freshness. Avoiding cliches forces us to look at the world with different eyes and other words.
 
Posts: 76 | Registered: June 22, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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She is a minor player in AG, but there I think she is an interesting character. Maybe someday (I hope) her story will be told.
 
Posts: 54 | Location: Washington DC | Registered: June 27, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The Trendy Nihilist
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Anyone here want to become a millionaire VERY fast? Here's the plan: Get Neil's permission to record the "I Believe" speech on top of some second rate dance music - and then release it as a single. Just like Baz Luhrman did with that annoying single "Everybody's Free to Wear Sunscreen".

The plan simply can't fail. But when "I Believe. . ." has been on heavy rotation everywhere for a few weeks, we are all going to hate that speech for the rest of our lives. . .
 
Posts: 13534 | Location: Denmark | Registered: June 20, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The Trendy Nihilist
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quote:
Originally posted by Stargrave:
[B] Hey, mtxx. Do you know how ridiculous you sound? [B]



Why don't you go f**k yourself gently with a chainsaw?


[This message has been edited by mtxx (edited 07-27-2001).]
 
Posts: 13534 | Location: Denmark | Registered: June 20, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The Trendy Nihilist
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A small footnote: The reason I brought up those copyright problems is because I know for sure that Neil definitely don't like it when his poems or short stories turn up on the Web without his permission. He's talked about this several times at The Well. (He's also very much against file-sharing services like Napster) And I DO think that the 'I Believe' speech can be compared to a poem or a short story. . . .

Michael
 
Posts: 13534 | Location: Denmark | Registered: June 20, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Well, this discussion is taking a serious header into the dirt.

C'mon guys, knock it off or ignore each other. We're not here for personal insults and angry exchanges. That's what chat rooms are for. smile

At the very least start a new thread for the angry stuff. Duke it out elsewhere. This one's about the book.
 
Posts: 76 | Registered: June 22, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Okay, no more dirt. Sorry. We've both been childish and foolish (ESPECIALLY Stargrave) - let's forget it. smile

(AND I'll go replace 'u' & 'c' in the bad four letter word with some '*' to make it slightly less offensive. . . . See? I CAN be nice and diplomatic.)


[This message has been edited by mtxx (edited 07-27-2001).]
 
Posts: 13534 | Location: Denmark | Registered: June 20, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I could care less about the swearing. The word Fcuk* is a good ol solid bit of language.

A nice percussive, feel-better-for-saying-it kinda word. Y'know?

* Just in case. smile
 
Posts: 76 | Registered: June 22, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I think it is a nice quote...and fuck is a very overused but effective word. About the name thing, don't you people think that if someone wants to call Neil Gaiman by his first name or whatever that they should be able to unless otherwise asked by the man himself not to? I don't know...I haven't met Neil because he doesn't come to this state much. Those of you that have and do call him Neil and such should just feel special because you can do it to his face and through other means. I wish I could call him by first name to his face and get to know him. That is all.


ShadoeAngel
 
Posts: 7 | Location: Madison, WI USA | Registered: June 16, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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stargrave: Why get upset that we take the time to thoughtfully respond? We aren't on your case because of your opinions. You are welcome to them and free to debate them. The problem is how disrespectful you are to everyone else.
-GMZoe
yes, I refer to him as Grant, I don't care how you refer to him. And the handle you're proud of... Grant admits it's a cheap knockoff of a Michael Moorcock character
 
Posts: 13129 | Location: Tucson | Registered: June 19, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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This probably doesn't need to be said anymore, but I still kind of want to say it...

Someone called the "I beleive" speech contrived. I think that's exactly the right phrase, rather then the slightly less accurate but always tempting "cliched." Cliches aren't untrue, but we avoid them in favor of subtler, more insightful truths, because cliche's became cliche through use.

So the speech is contrived. Well, so is the novel. So is all fiction. It is by its very nature a contrivance. But that's not what we mean. We mean that's its contrivance feels awkward, it calls attention to its creation rather than concealing it seamlessly the way the rest of the novel does. And this also is true of Sam's speech. At the end, Shadow wanted to applaud, but didn't. He knew it was contrived too, he knew it was a performance, as did Sam. We of course also know that it is Neil's performance in addition to Sam's. But this is a book about Beleif, and the repercussions and subtleties its existence brings with it. Beleif is one of those things that make humans neither fundamentally good, nor fundamentally bad, but fundamentally human (to paraphrase Neil). It deservies little asides like this, even if they are conspicuous. I had mixed thoughts when I first read it, about whether it really fit in, even as I already knew that I loved it completely. It's one of those great human contradictions that makes neither side of the experience any less. Be honest... even if you want to criticize its existance, don't you inherently like the speech at a gut level? I thought about it for a monologue too, as someone whos had to searhc for them for auditions, but the plain truth is it would probably make only a so so monologue, as I don't know that it would really impress so much as dazzle, if that makes sense. But it does work beautifully on the page, and I'd love to hear an MP3 or see a video clip of some really good actor bring it to life, and maybe they'd prove me wrong... in any case, it belongs there, despite every contradiction it embodies, even by its very presence.
 
Posts: 532 | Registered: June 16, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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My response to "Stargrave" has been moved to the 'Worlds' board due to topic drift and requests from Guardrail, et. al.

<*BAMF*>

-=- Saint NightWalker -=-
Have you ever thought about
how much your cities weigh?
 
Posts: 2507 | Location: SoCali, USA, Earth | Registered: June 20, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Harrggh!

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Picture of Ja (Evil Genius Kitty) Nell
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Gosh, NightWalker, this guy *really* doesn't know who you are, does he? But most of us think you're great, which I guess is why someone dubbed you 'Saint' recently...

And if only friends of Neil can call him 'Neil', that would set up a heirarchy that's not needed here... and 'Neil' *is* what Neil wants to be called, anyway... probably because it's friendlier and so many people mispronounce his name as 'Guy-man'...

Anywho, my two cents...
 
Posts: 3618 | Registered: July 21, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Oneiromancer:
So the speech is contrived. Well, so is the novel. So is all fiction. It is by its very nature a contrivance. But that's not what we mean. We mean that's its contrivance feels awkward, it calls attention to its creation rather than concealing it seamlessly the way the rest of the novel does. And this also is true of Sam's speech. At the end, Shadow wanted to applaud, but didn't. He knew it was contrived too, he knew it was a performance, as did Sam.


It fit Sam well. Sam is a performer. She likes to make her mark. She is a conversationist who freely states her mind. She not only did those big speeches, but also had the Kiss and the purple car under her belt as well. When I went through the book, it didn't feel that awkward or contrived but just fit in with who she was. (just checked my book to see if she was a theater student, but no, it was art history. Theater student would've explained a lot)
 
Posts: 13129 | Location: Tucson | Registered: June 19, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Sam's speech is a little contrived in the way that cliches ARE contrived- we've heard them so often, we know what's coming before we read it. Oneiromancer made some excellent points about the 'performance' of it, and its function in the story. We learn a lot about the beliefs of the characters in AG throughout the story, and Sam's speech is a universal but highly individualized piece of work that reminds us of the contradictory welter of things we all believe. (My mother firmly believes both those things about California and Florida, incidentally). Personally I always find it fascinating to hear the wacked out things other people believe, and just as interesting when what other people believe makes sense to me. The belief of an ordinary person can be the most complex thing in the universe.

Which all really just says, very cool speech.

On another note, I say Neil with whom I often discuss Neil, and Neil Gaiman with people whom I don't, and Gaiman when I cite him in papers, or maybe when I'm trying to sound like a literary critic. A name is something that goes with being known. Most of us don't know Neil, but we know his work, and it registers with us on a personal (often deep) level. He seems to like it that way. Most of us would also never dream (ahem) of invading Neil's privacy, trying to act over familiar with him, or in any way furthering our use of his first name. I know, I know, all probably made clear long ago here by others... and if I am ever even marginally famous, you may ALL call me ...Teleute.

In fact, you may call me that now, too.
 
Posts: 35 | Location: KC MO USA | Registered: June 19, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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(out of an undivided curiousity)-
and when I think of him as an entity, it's Neil Gaiman, which I imagine would be different if I knew him personally. Does anyone think of him as Neil? Or only as his full name? or only as his last name?
 
Posts: 35 | Location: KC MO USA | Registered: June 19, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Harrggh!

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Picture of Ja (Evil Genius Kitty) Nell
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quote:
Originally posted by Teleute:
[B...and if I am ever even marginally famous, you may ALL call me ...Teleute.


In fact, you may call me that now, too. [/B]



Hey, Teleute. Nice to meetcha. You can call me JaNell.
Is Teleute your given name, and how in the world do you pronounce it, and what does it mean?

And yes, people think of Neil as 'Neil'. 'Cause he's just that kind of guy.
 
Posts: 3618 | Registered: July 21, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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As another person with a greek-endless name, I feel compelled to remind you all that Teleute is a name for Death USED in Sandman, to spare poor Tel the indignity of explaining her name... come on JaNell, get with it!!! (j/k, of course)
 
Posts: 532 | Registered: June 16, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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(although it just occurred to me, this still leaves open the question of pronunciation, which I have in my head, but have no reason to beleive its right... in my head its "Tell-ey-ooht" or something close to that... But I never took greek.... I'm also assuming its not your given name Teleute, simply because what are the odds of your parents naming you death?)
 
Posts: 532 | Registered: June 16, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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