What about... God? As in the christian god? He is nowhere else in the novel as far as I've noticed, and making him the unrememberable god of money would carry plenty of symbolic weight ;-)

Perhaps it's supposed to be something along the lines of 'everyone knows about him, many believe in him, but few actually really do believe in him'-sort of thing. Like Om in Pratchett's Small Gods [for some reason, Pratchett analogies are something that Gaiman readers always seem to understand ;-)]. A god so widely spread and belived could be persistant but still faceless and anonymous due to the nature of people's belief in him. Perhaps he remains alive, but stays incognito because very few worship him in his true shape, or because just about everyone has their own perception of him, or because [and this would be harsh symbolism] no one worship him for what he stands for anymore...

But then again, it seems rather far-fetched for Gaiman. In spite of the obscurity of his references, his symbols are always amazingly consistent.

------------------------
Don't judge a book by it's contents'

I don't see how anyone can think that it's anything but Amun/Ammon/Amen, now. I've seen it several times on this thread, and even looked it up myself. Every description classifies him as "the hidden one", references facts that prayers to him never mention his name, and that he's also a god of wealth. He's in Vegas, where they have the largest temple of worship appropriate to him short of the Great Pyramids (The Luxor). Fits much better than trying to squeeze Hades/Pluto into that role.

I disagree about the forgettable god being Amen/Amun. From what I've read on this board about Amen, he was hidden and unseen, right?

Well, people can see this forgettable god. He's neither hidden or unseen. Just forgettable.

I posted this on another thread tonight, but I'll repeat it here. I think this was an idea (and a brilliant one at that) of Gaiman's that he wanted to use in this book.

I don't see how a forgettable god could come to exist in the first place, and how he could be brought to America in someone's mind (like every other old world god in the book). So I think it was a clever invention of Gaiman's.

quote:

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Originally posted by Sparker:
Since Neil's into Indian gods, perhaps it's Soma/Chandra: the Moon God. He is the God of psychic visions, dreams, inner planes, and the God of forgetfulness.

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That is what I came up with. He fits way too neatly to not be intentional in my opinion. A god of psychic visions and forgetfulness with direct links to something called Soma.

I was actually quite disappointed when I found out about him. I don't know what I was expecting the forgotten god to be, 42 probably. It must be a metaphor for something.

Maybe it's not him. Who knows?

Edit: So yeah, well done on getting there more than a year and a half before me.

[This message was edited by AMichael on December 06, 2003 at 10:27 AM.]

ok... i don't know about this one... its a stretch in any and all directions but what about a chinese god.

Chinese gamblers actually worship(ped) prayed to Kuan Ti the god of war before gambling instead of T'SHAI-SHEN the god of wealth or San-xing the three stellar gods of good fortune.

In essence these gods were "forgotten" to the chinese laborers.

I don't know much of chinese mythology but it might be worth looking into... further without a definite answer from neil what the hell

A.Gin

Ok, a couple thoughts while re-reading the book:

1) I'm leaning towards the Isles as the origin for the forgotten guy. Three reasons: the scotch whiskey Wednesday orders for him; the familiarity with Wednesday, as many of the Saxon et al. gods are analagous to the Nordic gods (heck, in most cases, it's only the name that has changed) -- although maybe he just appreciates that someone can actually maintain a conversation with him; and finally, I believe he was in Excalibur, not the Luxor. Excalibur is next door to New York, and is across the street from the Tropicana (where Neil was staying). In addition, the Luxor is mentioned by name, whereas the Excalibur is not--this is the key for me, as the absence of naming is similar to the forgetting, if you take my meaning.

Of course, I've not found a single god in the Isles mythology (Welsh, Island Celtic, Briton, Saxon, Angle, Pict, Roman, etc.) that fits the description, which hurts the case.

2) I think it's safe to say that the god in question is tied to wealth as a domain. However, perhaps the forgetfulness is for a different reason, and has nothing to do with his godhood? What if he's been 'cursed' or similar? He asks about a woman, perhaps there's a tragic love story involved? I haven't started researching it, but I think perhaps we've been looking at it the wrong way...

this amusing because i just came back to the boards and this was one of my first threads to post in back in '01.

but a thought off the top of my head without reading the whole thread - maybe there is no forgotten god because he has been forgotten. (neil just made him up).

real life is in the details

There are three gods--Taranis, Tuetates, and Esus--who exist in Celtic mythology who have semi-direct corrolations to Norse Gods. Esus was a Gallows god, like Odin who demanded sacrifice, but more to my liking is Tuetates, a Celtic god whose sacrifice consisted of whacking some poor guy over the head and dropping him in a Bog. He was also a god of fortune. Unfortunately, I can't find any great concrete mythology on them to suggest that he would be conceptually forgettable.

Also a couple of other things.
1)This god definitely isn't forgotten, he's just forgettable. Wednsday, who can identify him, can't even remember what the guy said, exactly. He just has an impression of what was said left over.

2)I like the idea of him being a sacrifice god. Perhaps a fire god. There's a reason his suit is not just grey but charcoal grey, and a reason they use the term "body in the bog" to describe the taste of the whiskey. Bodies in bogs are usually sacrifices, and usually Celtic in nature. And while good scotch tastes a little like peat, describing it as tasting like a body in a bog suggests that the drinker has, in fact, tasted that before.

ta.

He could be one of the people from Neverwhere who's fallen through the cracks of God-hood... =p

More seriously though, I've thought of him being some kind of embodiment/icon/symbol/representation of the old Gods - they exist, but that doesn't make them not-forgettable. That doesn't explain why he asks about that woman though. T___T;;

... or, plain and simple: He's a God of Forgetfulness.

Alright, I'll admit that I've not read this entire thread seeing as its so long and I'm currently short on time. I appoligize if my opinion steps on one that was already posted or been disproved. I'm going to be finish reading this soon.

This is my view of the subject. I think that, for the most part, people are over-analyzing this whole thing. I personally assumed while reading the book that this god was a very basic one: money.

My reasons for this are as follows:

1) He lives and thrives off the city Las Vegas. Las Vegas is a haven for gambling and is filled with the exchange of money. This exchange could be construed as worship, especially in the sense of gods.

2) This could be true no matter the unknown god's affiliation in the war. The worship of money and wealth is not new to America. Now, I may be wrong here or perhaps I'm a bit biased being raised in America, but I hear stories all the time about people coming to America to prosper or to find their fortunes. I believe that this illustrates people bringing this god from their countries. So, a wealth god could be newly-made in America or an incarnation of a god as old as civilization.

3) Money is lost easily. You forget it like the last location of your sock's match or your television remote. At least, when you have it or you're under the influence of a gambling rush. Think of all the pennies (or applicable small currency) people keep in jars or lose in the seat of couches. Money is made to be spent; gone and forgotten.

Those are the reasons I had time to think of right now. Again, I'm sorry if this stepped on anyone's toes.

Okay, I'm not sure if anyone else has put this forward, but I think the god whose name is forgotten is Mammon, which the Enyclopedia Mythica describes thusly: "Money". The abstract personification of material riches in the Judeo-Christian tradition.

Mammon
Catholic Encycolpedia
Dictionary.com
Occultopedia

I always thought he was the manifestation of luck because of the what he tells the waitress. Though, why he'd be forgettable is beyond me.

I've read this entire 12-page thread and I have boiled it down to 3 candidates which have been mentioned. It doesn't matter which ones because I'm probably wrong anyway.

I want to throw out a couple ideas for you all, because I only know what I've read on these boards. I have a very poor knowledge base when it comes to mythology.

Remember that there were folk heroes in this book and not just gods. Is it possible that this unrememberable entity could be some sort of folk hero like Whiskey Jack or Johnny Appleseed, as opposed to a full-fledged god? I think he probably is a god, but it's never explicitly declared in the text that he was a god.

Also remember that Neil likes to modernize his characters. For example, Mad Sweeney is his modern-day interpretation of a leprechaun. Nothing like the traditional American idea of a small person dressed all in green with clovers all over the place. He adds modern-day personality to his characters, and it is possible that we are allowing some of these nuances to cloud our vision. Perhaps the reason that some of our guesses are always just slightly off is because Neil added in some modernizations to this character, or perhaps took away some of the defining characteristics that would have truly defined this god/hero. I think it's obvious he made it confusing on purpose.

I really feel that if he were ever to reveal the identity of this god/hero, it would not fit in perfectly with most of the reference materials that all of you seem to be using for your research on this. The internet contains such vast knowledge that if there were a truly perfect match, someone would have found it by now.

The only problem with that theory is finding out which aspects of the god/hero were added as possibly red herrings or modernizations, and which aspects are the truly defining characteristics? And of course nobody knows the answer to that one except the author.

So, Chief Rebel Angel, you never mentioned which three candidates you have it boiled down to. Would you like to share your list?

No offense, but does it matter? I'd just be adding a vote to 3 candidates we've already been over a dozen times, and until we know for sure, I'm going to assume they're all wrong.

Kudos to everyone that's been researching and contributing to this cause, but I honestly believe the god we're searching for isn't obscure or bizarre in any way. I think the answer is right in front of our faces, and we just need the right clue to get it.

Here's another idea that's probably wrong but might spark some thought in you:

Has anyone thought it might be a modernized version of Terry Pratchett's version of Fate? Pratchett's Fate had black eyes and black hair, and he certainly controlled peoples' fates (dur). Pratchett's Fate was a lot more of a jerk and took pleasure in messing with peoples' destinies, whereas this one could be Gaiman's version of that same character. Just as dangerous, but more sympathetic.

The major flaw in this idea is obviously that it's not a god from any ancient pantheon, and I think we all like to believe that every god in this book has some way of getting here from their "native" countries. As I said, this is just something to get people to think from a different perspective, not a real guess. Also, nobody has responded to my question of whether or not this character might be a folk hero of some kind and not a full-on god.

I honestly believe the answer is in the book somewhere, maybe in one of the "Coming to America" shorts, maybe not.

Ive posted something similar in another chat, but here goes:
Im pretty certain based on the pantheons involved and his designation as a god vice a mythical being, that this is an Egyptian diety. One deity not mentioned are the Pharohs. Like many of the gods and creatures in the book, most started off as men or animals and through worship gained powers to grow beyond mortal realms. Mythos tended to group together, and on Shadow's side are all old fading gods. This one Pharoh I am thinking of, may have been one I had heard of who had his name excised from his monuments and stricken from all records by his successor. His promised power in his kingdom (to rule in the afterlife) would account for his control, and his semi-presence. He is between worlds after all. His wealthy appearance, and grey suit reminding us of his origins and mummification (plus reference to enjoying drinks reminding him of his the nile and his death) he survives by the very pyramid and myth of Pharoh as god. I think the pharoh in question was one of the Ramsees, which could further explain his survival by having his existance believed in (but not worshiped directly) by judeo-christians. His opening scene has him drawing his power from the wealth donated/lost--as to a king.

Someone On the "only the gods are real" site posted this message in the guestbook:

The clues for the forgotten god are all there and they point pretty firmyl to who He is, if you look at it from the proper angle. You've not posted it, so maybe you don't want it just put up. Here, then, are the big clues, and I hope it helps everyone out. Think of cultic titles of some well-known dieties, and that might help, too. 1. He's sophisticated, not young, and well-dressed, always in dark grey or black. 2. He is clearly a wealth-god who is not only intimately connected to money and its exchange but also to loss. 3. He is alone, and works alone, and is serious, businesslike, solemn. However, when Wednesday is trying to recruit him, the forgotten god mentions something--Wednesday's reply indicates that this god is looking for a female god, a 'she' who hasn't been seen in a long time. Even though the forgotten god wants to stay out of the conflict, whoever she is is so important that he'd risk himself and everything to see her again. 4. He drinks Laphroig, for two reasons. First, it is expensive--wealth again. Second, he enjoys the 'body-in-the-bog' flavor, an association with death and decay and deep mud. 5. He hangs out in dark places. 6. Finally and perhaps most tellingly is his forgettable quality itself. In this world he is just hard to notice or concentrate on or remember. It's almost like he's invisible--a certain kind of invisible, to be sure, but this is a big hint as to his identity. Happy hunting.

I take it from this guy's tone that he knows who the god is. The Judeo-Christian God has no interest in females, being above gender himself. The part about titles of well known deities is interesting. I don't know about Hades, he would fit the clues but he just doesn't ring true.

I think the theory about him being simply "money," is a good one, but what about that "she?" Since he is supposedly an old god, he is probably from a pantheon of some sort. The deep mud thing is interesting, perhaps something to do with bog people. Although he says that he is "a well known deity".

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Some guy,

Okay, I skipped over pages 3 to 12, so sorry if anyone got these already, but I have two ideas:

1. This guy is the anthromorphization of the Hoard Sweeney & Shadow reach into to pull out coins. I'm not quite sure why that would make him particularly forgettable, but there ya go.

2. It's Neil Gaiman. Since he's the author, he can trace the 'nodes of wealth'. But, he doesn't want anyone remembering him or it would throw the entire novel into some wacky self-referential mess. And Wednesday, as one of the main characters, can of course converse with him.

for me its got to be hades. The clues that the guy posted on the "only the gods are real" site, as are reproduced above, point to Hades more firmly than amun or any other god mentioned on this site. Especially the stuff about wealth, loss, death and decay and dark places. Not forgetting of course that Hades is famously forgetable. The only thing that doesn't add up for me is the search for the 'she', if anyone is more knowledgable in the area of gods than I perhaps they can shed some light on this issue.

I thank you

Right, just joined the board. I've been losing hair over this for too long now as well. Here're my theories;
1.Hades/Pluto/even Soma. The invisibility, the 'forgetting the name', the wealth, the dark places. And also the thing about the missing lady. Persephone, I'm not sure about the 200 years though. And I checked one of the members' post on Soma, the god not the drink, and it said that Soma stole himself a wife as well. From the 'Only the gods are real' web posting a guy posted the main hints and Hades/Pluto/Soma fits in as well. That guy probably has concluded on Hades. And for all those things I think that Hades/Pluto/Soma are actually different versions of the same god.
2.Second one but a long shot, Morpheus. A lot of people had brought it up before but I have to say it's a good one. Dreams can't be remembered, much and also the sandman character kinda fits the god in question. And also...anyone remember Nada, the dream lord's love? Just a thought.
Dammit.
I do like the egyptian gods but the missing woman/goddess and the fact that the god is willing to risk anything for her is in question with the other gods mentioned. Ah well. Been losing sleep as well. Hope this forum is still twitching a skint of life. Cheers.

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