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Originally posted by mkregal:
This god is new. Somewhere in AG, Neil refers some of the new gods and refers to them as intangibles. That is what I picked up from the casino scenes - greed, money all in the atmosphere but nobody can grasp it.

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I agree with this opinion. I spent hours searching through my husband's Encyclopedia of the Gods and Guide to the Gods trying to unearth an answer... but I think the answer is there. Wealth - intangible - something you just can't put your finger on. Right on, mkregal!

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Originally posted by calliope:
I agree with this opinion. I spent hours searching through my husband's Encyclopedia of the Gods and Guide to the Gods trying to unearth an answer... but I think the answer is there. Wealth - intangible - something you just can't put your finger on. Right on, [b]mkregal![/B]

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And yet . . .

The intangibles, as referenced by several of the new gods, are clearly on the "new" side. They're "market forces" and things like that, since they live on Wall Street.

The god-who-can-not-be-remembered is clearly on the side of the old gods. He comes to the confab at the House on the Rock, he shows up on the "old" side at the end giving inspirational speeches no one can remember!

Above someone mentioned that no Greek gods were included, per a question asked of NG at a reading. That doesn't necessarily mean no ROMAN gods were included. They ripped them off from the Greeks, sure, but they weren't exactly the SAME. I need to read up a bit more on Pluto (my favorite theory thus far). Excuse me while I go craft a Google search that won't bring up primarily planets and Disney dogs.

At first the forgotton god struck me as an intangible, but as I think more and more about it, the one in Las Vegas was following 'real' money and it's transfer around the city, and it once it's been counted. The intangibles want the war to be around walstreet, where money is more intangible as general 'wealth' - not real money. This strikes me as why the forgotton one is an older god.

okay, i have no idea who the forgotten god is,, i definitly think we're given enough clues to reason it out though, i just thought i would post my thoughts on what the key points are and see if we could all work it out together..
1) the section starting on page 221 contains a paragraph which argues the real reason people come to las vegas is to lose money- that it is like a sacrifice. (i'm omitting some stuff on the assumption that people have the book and can look up the section i mean if interested). This in itself could stil make him some god akin to hades but he seems too closely tied to money for that- or trade, or loss, or something- shadow is left w/ a sense of wealth, the god can picture the network of money in his mind,
the fact that he is forgotten/ unnoticed seems only half his essence to me. i can't believe (much as i would like) that he is morpheus or any god of dreams b/c dreams have too much hope, they are things of the future, and this god, tied to loss- wealth- whatever, seems more a thing of past, or possibly the moment. i don't know enough about pluto to say anything either way on him, all i can say is that this god makes me think of the river lethe (sp?) more than anything else.
I just think this all has to be reasoned out, and i don't think that worrying about the "true" name of the god is going to work, what's an epithat or not. The greeks had a taboo against naming hades, yes, however their magical texts are Covered in pictures and arrangements of vowels and veowels and consonents that are all attempting to get at the true name a god- the god- any god. they didn't believe that what they called the gods were their true names, but they did believe that if they could speak or write the true name of a god then they had power over that god (a belief which apparantly did exist in other cultures since, as is said in AG, odin knows the names of the gods and has some power w/ them..or is feared by them.. b/c of this.)i don't want to start reiterating my class lectures (religion, magic and astrology in the ancient mediterranian world.. if you get the chance for a class on the topic, take it, fascinating stuff, especially if you like writing) my point is, lets find out what he's a god of, and then just call him bob.

Right. So if the intangibles are the "Wall Street greedy" gods, that makes sense that this god would not be one among them. What struck me about this god was money, desert, stealth. But I haven't found anything that refers to a god who is stealthy (a ninja god - heh, tee-hee) and wealthy and in some way attached to the desert. I had the distinct feeling that he was an Egyptian god, although I can't for the life of me figure out why. I just thought that the explanation that he might be an "intangible" sounded reasonable. I see the error in the logic.

"This in itself could stil make him some god akin to hades but he seems too closely tied to money for that-"

Err.. One of the gods associated with the Greek Hades was a guy referred to by those jolly Romans as Dis.

(Pluto -- I think I have my mythology straight here -- is a later creature, more directly stolen-er, borrowed from the Greek's guy. Dis and Pluto were then promptly confused with each other, since their influences overlapped so much. But the Romans seemed to really like the Hades/Persephone story (probably a side effect of those Eleusian or however-you-spell-it Mysteries, which prominantly figured Ceres and Persephone (or Kore, as the Greeks also called her -- I promise we're getting out of these nested parentheses soon! ) as well as Dionysos), so they went ahead and took the god from it as well as the goddesses. But Dis wasn't, I think, the sort of guy who would go ravishing off virgins into his realm by enticing them with flowers. He was a bit antisocial.)

Anyway, the point of all this is that Dis was (is?) a god of wealth and riches. All that was dug out of the ground belonged to him. I think Dis (also not the guy's real name) would be right at home in Las Vegas, and is at the very least a good candidate for our mystery god.

Whoever he is (and I'm hedging my bets. Neil might have just made him up -- who would know? ), I sincerely doubt he's Egyptian. They didn't have a god of wealth -- the goddess Nephthys was patroness of wealth in their pantheon.

-kismet, who needs to cut down on the Comparative Religions just a little.

The Egyptians may not have had a god of wealth - but how about the Hindus?
Clue as to the god's identity: Soma - An intoxicating or hallucinogenic beverage, used as an offering to the Hindu gods and consumed by participants in Vedic ritual sacrifices.
The god in question wears a charcoal suit, has dark hair and eyes and a clean-shaven face, can follow the trails of money wherever they are (assuming they are not electronic trails), appreciates the cold desert winter (this is an interesting tidbit) and enjoys the "body-in-the-bog" (marshy taste) of his Laphroaig and water. He references a goddess who hasn't been seen for 200 years, and he has pity for the waitress who seems to have been stiffed by the two gods. He passes some good foturne her way.

"I used to be taller, but I asked too many questions." (Bean)

I think you've got it. Soma is also referred to as a god of the moon. See the following link:

http://www.pantheon.org/articles/s/soma.html

Good call.

Okay, after a little remembering and research (R&R ) if we are heading in the direction of an Indian god then Kubera is the culprit as he is the Indian god of wealth. Soma is the god/living embodiment of the ambrosia-like hallucinogenic drink. Also as far as Pluto and Hades, both are considered to be gods of wealth, as they are gods of all that is found underground.

My two cents.

AWOL

Just a quick note re. Medusa--there was a Gorgon at the Final Battle and, also, I believe Medusa is the one Wednesday visited who wouldn't let anyone look at her and ate bugs. When the Gorgon is described at the end, I think they refer to her as one of the ones Wednesday called on. I didn't catch who she was at the first mention, but makes sense as you can't look directly at a Gorgon.
I like the idea about Soma; makes sense!

I've kind of been wondering if the Laphroaig could be taken as a clue of identity, making it a Celtic god. . .

Perhaps Arawn or Gwyn ap Nudd (ok, they are both from Wales and Laphroaig is from Scotland. . . maybe a stretch here).

Both are said to rule the Underworld (that "body in the bog" taste), and have access to wealth, much as Pluto would (my initial guess). Arawn has been known to have a sense of fair play, too (not stiffing the waitress).

Maybe I'm just advancing another theory for the sake of argument .

How could you people have forgotten MAMMON the god of riches, avarice and worldly gain?

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Originally posted by Morgana:
How could you people have forgotten MAMMON the god of riches, avarice and worldly gain?

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'Forgotten'... hah hah.

Actually, I was just keeping my mouth shut. I stumbled across that idea a couple days ago, re-reading my Manfred Lurker Dictionary on Gods & Goddesses.

However... Mammon is more than that... since it's also riches through unjust profit. Vegas would totally entice him.

-=- Saint NightWalker -=-

Also... to throw some money in the pot...

'Soma' is Vedic, yes... but a the time of Biblical Reference (Mammon's time)... it could have trickled into the Semetic Babylonian mythology.

The name 'Hades' referred to the cap or helm of invisibility that the Grecian God of the Underworld wore.

Neil has specifically said that Greco-Roman gods were not included directly... but then again, this is from the same guy that 'acknolwedged' his 'source material' for Sandman: The Dream Hunters.

As for it being Hades/Pluto/Orcus/Dis Pater/etc... something just doesn't click right, and yet it does.

I'm personally leaning toward Mammon.

-=- Saint NightWalker -=-

Well, I thought of Mammon several days ago but discounted it because Mammon is so ostentatious, such a big fancy-pants show-off, that it seemed unlikely he could tolerate being forgotten.

Then again, I'm probably thinking of the Miltonian version of Mammon, the supposed fallen angel; perhaps Neil was thinking of an earlier incarnation?



[This message has been edited by bobtoombs (edited 07-10-2001).]

Maybe he's just so old that he never had a name to begin with. There were a lot of those, Gods without Names, and maybe he was constantly forgotten because he's a forgotten god, he has little influence, and the human mind can't grasp something so old and infinite. The Gods themselves had no trouble knowing or remembering him, but they're ancient as well. This was my rationale while reading, however, because it was the only way I could keep it from driving me crazy with curiosity.

I do tend to take things as I see them.

I think it's Hades. The Greeks talked about how he could be in the room with you at any time, and you'd never know it. Also, there's the wealth connection.

But Mammon really isn't a deity. That is you cannot point to a pantheon and say there's Mammon, God of Wealth.

The bible just refers to not being able to serve both god and money The name itself is just derived from mamon which is Aramaic (?) for wealth.

While Mammon was thought to be a deity in the Middle Ages and Milton makes him one of the fallen, there is no basis to believe he was a god of any sort.

[This message has been edited by baedeker (edited 07-07-2001).]

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Originally posted by baedeker:
But Mammon really isn't a deity. That is you cannot point to a pantheon and say there's Mammon, God of Wealth.

The bible just refers to not being able to serve both god and money The name itself is just derived from mamon which is Aramaic (?) for wealth.

While Mammon was thought to be a deity in the Middle Ages and Milton makes him one of the fallen, there is no basis to believe he was a god of any sort.

[This message has been edited by baedeker (edited 07-07-2001).]

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Actually, Mammon (which is current translation of the Aramaic 'Mammona') could be related to 'Mamon' of the Semetic and Mishnaic Babylonians, which was a localized deity of personal wealth and 'firmness'.

I'll post the exact entry from Lurker's God's and Goddesses in a bit... I've got to re-find my copy... I think it's in the car.

I'm personally still torn between Mammon and Hades/Plutos/Orcus...

-=- Saint NightWalker -=-

Most of the attempts to make Mammon into a deity/demon smack of the theological equivalent of retcons or more often misinterpretations. I'd have to see what Lurker says and what he gives for his sources

Other than wealth, does he match up at all with the character in AG? That whole trait of no one remembering him still smacks of the River Lethe or the broth of forgetfulness.

The other question is what's a local Bablyon deity doing in America? He seems to have done well for himself.