Sparker, it took me five times to read what you wrote and a long while of rumiating it in my head to know what you meant the more I hang around here the more stupid I feel. t's stimulating. (Edited in coz i forgot: i see your point and quite like it...)
Anyway, done some more research on the sacrifice god line.
First: Soma was a drink mentioned in the vedas, made from the plant called soma, which of course no one knows which one is it -remember the vedas are like 4000 years old and passed down form generation to generation orally. It is believed to be some kind of asclepias (for those of you who know about these things) or hemp or soemthing like that. It was brought to men by an eagle, a falcon or the daughters of the sun, depeding the version. It was burnt -like all other things in these rites- by a fire and the fire, which was also a god, transformed it into smoke and carried it to the gods.
In India things like the elements and such were 'divinizied' -made this word up-, that is, fire is fire, and also a god. Not the god of fire, but god AND fire at the same time. According to Brewer's Phrase and Fable (actually, it's Wordsworth's Phrase and Fable, which is Brewer's only different), Soma "was itself personified as a god, abd represented by the MOON". Yeah.
According to another dictionary of symbols, "Soma is a divinity to whom hymns and sacrifices are consacrated. It is the honey of immortality..."
Searching my notes on Indian religion, I came upon a hymn to Agni, the fire god. I made a connection between charcoal and fire; the conection soma and fire is also there. Fire=Agni was present in all rites, coz all rites involved sacrifices and the only way to make them effective was to burn them. That made me think maybe the forgettable god was Agni, Fire, but I dont know... Anyway, I read some of the hymn, I think it's the first one in the Rig Veda, which says: "May I by the fire achieve wealth, flourishing day by day, glorious, plenty of heroes". Excuse me if it doesn't make sense, it's all very cryptic and I'm translating myself into English -not from sanskrit, though. This basically is a fixed formula present in all the hymns to the gods which asks for wealth and descendance.
One last thing: rereading the part where Wednesday deals with 'the guy', I got the impression thet the forgettable god knew what Wednesday was up to (if you have already talked about this coz it was so obvious to everyone except me, skip to the last paragraph) That's why W tells him "Look, yo come in, be there when we need you, and I'll take care of you", then he bribes him, and 'the guy' says something, W replies "Of course I am -smiling like a knife- waht do you expect?... it's the only game in town".
Probably the guy told him "you're a fucking bastard whose going to sacrifice our fellow gods". Think about it, he being the sacrifice god, it's but right he knew it all.

[This message has been edited by cloverheart (edited 10-09-2001).]

This is from memory as i returned some research books back to the library months back- another word for soma is body (and semen,too!) and, (without lookng this up in _AG_) right before wednesday offers to buy him the soma, his drink has "body in the bog" quality... that kind of threw me at first -thinking he was "eater of people". BUT, we must remember that he does care about the waitress so he must have a good side........
thanks for all the research and keeping this topic going. i'm gonna stick with my original theories for now-but you are making it harder........peace

patrizia, I had not read your theories... very interesting, I had not noticed the connection. I am reluctant to beleive that Shadow is the guy's son, though, probably because it makes the plot so complicated dand my head starts spinning when I think too much I dont remeber, but I think Wednesday never tells shadow he's his father...
No progress in the 'sacrifice-god' line, although mae some thnking -really.
the whole theme of the book is sacrifice: (I was so proud of having thought this but I guess it was obvious)
Shadow is in jail as a sacrifice to Laura.
The golden coin he gives her can be seen as a sort of sacrifice too, or an offering.
Of course there's the battle, which is a huge sacrifice, and Shadow's own one, in the tree. Laura sacrifices herself in the end to Shadow -which kind of completes the circle.
I cant think now if there are any more.
Any thoughts about this?

cloverheart (and others):
thanks-my head has been spinning since june(that major eclipse coinciding with the release of _AG_ has residual effects!).....
i am at work (don't tell) so my book isn't handy- but there _is_ the part when Shadow confronts Wednesday right after Laura stabs Loki and herself, and says "You needed a son." and W. says "I needed 'you', my boy. Yes..." i think tricky wording was used in this case and in other places, but that is just me. And, how about: "...no man may be certain who fathered a child, but the mother, ah, that you could be certain of." i've since listened to the audio version (GOOD!) and it lets one just enjoy the story. p


[This message has been edited by patrizia (edited 10-16-2001).]

[This message has been edited by patrizia (edited 10-16-2001).]

Yeah, I immediately thought when I read 'I needed A son' that there was something strange there... However, maybe we're seeing things that truly aren't there, coz it seems everything else points to Shadow being Wednesday's son, even his name.
I'm confused. I always am when analyzing Neil's work -it's lovely!

I had to edit with quotes before someone else pointed out my bad memory! anyway, does anyone think that the "Muzak version of 'Why Can't He Be You?'" playing "almost subliminally" in the hotel/casino is a clue?
Don't recall the song...............p

quote:

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Originally posted by patrizia:
does anyone think that the "Muzak version of 'Why Can't He Be You?'" playing "almost subliminally" in the hotel/casino is a clue?
Don't recall the song...............p

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It had struck me as something that might be a clue, but I hadn't given it much thought. However, it hit me that it works really well for my theory (that's the Aztec god Tezcatlipoca) because the name translates to "Smoky Mirror".

=Brian

I was reading through the lyrics to "Why Can't He Be You?" It's a Patsy Cline song. If the lyrics are important to finding the identity of the unknown god, I'm not catching anything, although they do seem to be useful for describing Wednesday. It's all about a woman who is dating someone who does all of the right things but who she doesn't love. You'll remember one of Wednesday's charms is that no woman whom he is with will ever love another.

However, if it's just the title that's important, I still think it supports my theory.

=Brian

good work! do you think that it (the song) fits my theory that the unknown god (whoever he may be) is shadows father?

well, we know who Shadow's father is, right? it's Wednesday.

However, the name of that song...does it ring a bell with any Sandman readers? Remember the line "you can be when i'm gone". the song title is very close, isn't it?

not sure what it means, though.

Hello, This is my first post on this or any Message Board. The question of the identity of "The man in the charcoal suit" I think it is the Egyptian god Amen (The hidden one). The short of my reasoning is Wednesday offered to get him a bottle of Soma. This was drunk by Egyptian priests. Also The following is pulled from the web site http://www.touregypt.net/amen.htm (The word or root amen, certainly means "what is hidden," "what is not seen," "what cannot be seen," and the like, and this fact is proved by scores of examples which may be collected from texts of all periods.)

quote:

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Originally posted by KnightsBridge:
I really think that it was the Egyptian God Amen - "the hidden one...the invisible creative power..." Maybe the partner mentioned was Amen's consort Mut or "mother".

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I think you are right on! Sorry I missed your post. I came to the same conclusion and posted it 10-26-01.

I was going over the the other posts on this topic again and I want to apoligize to KnightsBridge and others who came up with this ideal before me. I think they might be right though. It seems to fit. It was fun to research and come up with theories.

quote:

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Originally posted by FGum:
The question of the identity of "The man in the charcoal suit" I think it is the Egyptian god Amen (The hidden one). The short of my reasoning is Wednesday offered to get him a bottle of Soma.

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While I agree with the hidden aspect of the God, I don't see how the rest of the description of the god fits in. Why does he hang around Vegas? Why does the flow of money interest him so? Why black hair, black eyes, black suit? What's the song mean?

I suspect that there are a few gods who are unknown, unnameable, or otherwise forgettable (in the active sense of the verb). I think the other clues are vital to determining the identity of the god.

I'm not saying that Amen isn't the right god, I'm just curious if there's more evidence other than the soma and the hidden aspects?

=Brian

quote:

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Originally posted by Ntolnry:
While I agree with the hidden aspect of the God, I don't see how the rest of the description of the god fits in. Why does he hang around Vegas? Why does the flow of money interest him so? Why black hair, black eyes, black suit? What's the song mean?

I suspect that there are a few gods who are unknown, unnameable, or otherwise forgettable (in the active sense of the verb). I think the other clues are vital to determining the identity of the god.

I'm not saying that Amen isn't the right god, I'm just curious if there's more evidence other than the soma and the hidden aspects?

=Brian

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Very good points. To tell the truth I don't know a lot about the history of the god Amen. Maybe there is more to it. Or I may be barking up the wrong tree.

Ok what about this. The casino that the man in the charcoal suit comes out of could be the Luxor.The book states "the man in the charcoal suit walks, unnoticed, through the doorway, and saunters up the ramp, out onto the sidewalk. He does not even glance up to see the imitation of New York on his left." I have never been to Las Vegas but a map I was looking at

http://www.prairienet.org/~scruffy/e.htm

suggests to me that the New York New York
casino would be on your left if you were coming out of the Luxor casino. The Luxor Temple was where Amen-Ra was worshiped in ancient Thebes.
Amen-Ra is A dual deity devised to merge the worship of Amen with the older solar
cult of Ra. This would explain why an aspect of Amen or Amen-Ra is in Las Vegas.
And, (This is a big stretch) "Why can't he be you" could refer to the Egyptain's habit of combining their gods aspects together at times. Even the several Elvis impersonators could represent different aspects of the "King"?
What do you think?
Or maybe I have been thinking about this too long

i think it is a good thing to keep thinking about this book and coming up with ideas-keeps us out of trouble and/or gives us a nice diversion from life...since it has been a long time (four months) for entered posts it is understandable to add things already mentioned. a while back i did anagrams for mike ainsel-and posted it. "is like amen" is one! ( answers the "like father like son" fortune- for me anyway!) I KNOW - ainsel is from a foreign tale about a brownie.......glad you guys humor me (but it does fit)...........................pc

So is ANY ONE 100% sure? Do you think it would work if we all begged and begged Neil until he gave in? A note on the Hades/Pluto guess, they were both gods of the underworld and the DEAD. The nameless god doesn't sound like a god of the dead. Just some food for thought.

I would like to withdraw my last message (except for the part about begging Neil). I'm a little behind on the topic (that's what happens when you're new and read the first two pages and then skip to the last(what do you expect? I'm only 14!)) I would like to give a suggestion (that is if it wasn't ruled out two months ago) that the unnamed god is Chai Shen, the Chinese god of wealth. You know the one that is asked to grant wealth on the Chinese new year. But that's just my $.02.

quote:

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Originally posted by WitchCat:
I would like to give a suggestion (that is if it wasn't ruled out two months ago) that the unnamed god is Chai Shen, the Chinese god of wealth. You know the one that is asked to grant wealth on the Chinese new year. But that's just my $.02.

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I was considering Chai Shen, but there's no support for the inability for people to notice/remember him. I started looking through various wealth gods, and picked the oriental gods first because of the dark hair/eyes as well as the immaculate suit. Unfortunately, chinese people tend to remember their gods quite well, so it didn't make much sense from that angle.

As for asking Neil, I did send him a FAQ asking if my answer were correct, but with all of his FAQ problems, he may be unable to see it right now. And someone did ask him not to tell, which is a shame 'cause he was on the verge of telling us. But, yes, I'm all for getting confirmation from Neil, but only confirmation. I'd rather he didn't tell us if we didn't guess.

=Brian