This thread has been going on for well over three years, and I have to say, I think the Hades crowd is the only one that has presented a convincing case.

My very first post was in the "Who was that guys thread and I still believe that it was the Egyptian god Amen. It is the only ideal that makes any sense.

I just finished American Gods, and I've been scouring the internet looking for some information on the forgotten God. I found this site, which was very interesting, but nothing has given me the feeling that it is the correct answer. Why would Neil Gaimen have created such a buzz around this god if the answer was as mundane as "Luck" or "Hades" or "Mercury?" I think the truth is much more shocking.

If America was a bad land for gods, then this would include ALL gods. No matter what pantheon they come from. Wednesday would, of course, have wanted to get the most powerful god in America on his side. Which pantheon/god would have the most power in America? The Judeao-Christian God. This is the god with the most believers in the country. This is the god with the most power.

Some questions:

Why could no one remember what he looked like, or even see him?

There are several instances in the bible that answer this question, but the first one I found was from Exodus 33:

18 Then Moses said, "Now show me your glory."
19 And the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."
21 Then the LORD said, "There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. 22 When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen."

Why could no one remember his name?

Mortals are not allowed to know God's name. That is why we call him "God" or "Lord" or even "Yahweh" which simply means "I am." It is not the true name of God. Before you say, "wait, what about "Jehovah?" Jehovah was a mistranslation of Yahweh. It is not the name of God.

From Exodus 3:

13 Moses said to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?"

14 God said to Moses, "I am who I am . [b] This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' "

Anyway, that's all I've got so far. It may not be the best Theory, or the most well thought out (I haven't figured out yet why he is in Vegas, or who he is looking for), but it rings truer for me than any of the other suggestions so far. I just don't know why Neil would have created such a mystery if it was just another god.

Let me know what you guys think of this. It just makes sense to me.

OK, when I started reading your post I thought you were being silly. But no, you've got a decent theory going there. I'm still leaning towards Hades/Pluto, but I am prepared to be convinced.

The only thing is, wouldn't he be so much more powerful that everyone else combined?

I mean, not that I'm pro-christian here, but if we're accepting the mythos and its premises thent eh unnamed god would be greater than all the rest combined.

Hmm... Might be time to re-read the book.

quote:

Originally posted by Kreme:
OK, when I started reading your post I thought you were being silly. But no, you've got a decent theory going there. I'm still leaning towards Hades/Pluto, but I am prepared to be convinced.

The only thing is, wouldn't he be so much more powerful that everyone else combined?

I mean, not that I'm pro-christian here, but if we're accepting the mythos and its premises thent eh unnamed god would be greater than all the rest combined.

Hmm... Might be time to re-read the book.

Thats basically what i said in the other thread and pointed out that they dont try to get jesus on their team either. Why not get em both?

Well, it works for the name part, but not much else. Why would the character be in Vegas, why would he drink Whisky and water? What is his connection to gambling?
Also, none of the gods like Jesus becuase he's popular. Not to mention the fact that he took all their followers. There's bad blood, I think.

UNCLE KRACKER LYRICS

"Whiskey And Water"

You put some whiskey in the water
Gonna run off with your daughter
And if I make it to the border
I'm gonna be alright
You put some whiskey in the water
Gonna run off with your daughter
And if I make it to the border
I'm gonna be alright

I'm on the run, the devil's tryin to get me
Says I met him at a pawn shop down in Mississippi
I was an angel lookin for another face
I must a bumped my fuckin head when I fell from grace
I found a place in the sun like Stevie
And now I gotta wonder cause the rain don't believe me
I need to breathe, take the money and run
I put my faith in one place and now I'm fuckin done

You put some whiskey in the water
Gonna run off with your daughter
And if I make it to the border
I'm gonna be alright
You put some whiskey in the water
Gonna run off with your daughter
And if I make it to the border
I'm gonna be alright

I could a been a saint, but I choose the wrong path
I ain't no dummy, take the money and laugh, Uh
I got the cash, did the dash for the door
Now I'm sittin on my stash and I'm feelin like a whore
I'm torn, but can't think, I blink so I miss
I move in strange ways, I move to dismiss
I'll leave this place and when I do that's it
I don't need to conclude so you can keep that shit

You put some whiskey in the water
Gonna run off with your daughter
And if I make it to the border
I'm gonna be alright
You put some whiskey in the water
Gonna run off with your daughter
And if I make it to the border
I'm gonna be alright

Uh, I'm headin south an Old Whiskey Road
Livin life like a story that doesn't need to be told
It's gettin old, always runnin from the past
I'm lookin at myself in the bottom of a glass
I won't last, my lights too dim, h
I seen the future and it's lookin pretty grim, Uh
I'm gonna win, but not like that
So I'm takin what I got and I ain't never comin back

You put some whiskey in the water
Gonna run off with your daughter
And if I make it to the border
I'm gonna be alright
You put some whiskey in the water
Gonna run off with your daughter
And if I make it to the border
I'm gonna be alright
You put some whiskey in the water
Gonna run off with your daughter
And if I make it to the border
I'm gonna be alright
You put some whiskey in the water
Gonna run off with your daughter
And if I make it to the border
I'm gonna be alright
---------------

I'm not sold on any theory. The YHWH theory works for 'Un-named' - but it's also kind of the 'man in the mack' at Paddy Dignam's funeral who gets written up as the 13th participant 'Mr. McIntosh' in the newspaper accounts.
* * * * *

Now who is that lankylooking galoot over there in the macintosh? Now who is he I'd like to know? Now, I'd give a trifle to know who he is. Always someone turns up you never dreamt of. A fellow could live on his lonesome all his life. Yes, he could. Still he'd have to get someone to sod him after he died though he could dig his own grave. We all do. Only man buries. No ants too. First thing strikes anybody. Bury the dead. Say Robinson Crusoe was true to life. Well then Friday buried him. Every Friday buries a Thursday if you come to look at it.

O, poor Robinson Crusoe!
How could you possibly do so?
Poor Dignam! His last lie on the earth in his box. When you think of them all it does seem a waste of wood. All gnawed through. They could invent a handsome bier with a kind of panel sliding, let it down that way. Ay but they might object to be buried out of another fellow's. They're so particular. Lay me in my native earth. Bit of clay from the holy land. Only a mother and deadborn child ever buried in the one coffin. I see what it means. I see. To protect him as long as possible even in the earth. The Irishman's house is his coffin. Embalming in catacombs, mummies the same idea.

Mr Bloom stood far back, his hat in his hand, counting the bared heads. Twelve. I'm thirteen. No. The chap in the macintosh is thirteen. Death's number. Where the deuce did he pop out of? He wasn't in the chapel, that I'll swear. Silly superstition that about thirteen.

or John Barleycorn?

There was three kings into the east,
Three kings both great and high,
And they hae sworn a solemn oath
John Barleycorn should die.

They took a plough and plough'd him down,
Put clods upon his head,
And they hae sworn a solemn oath
John Barleycorn was dead.

But the cheerful Spring came kindly on,
And show'rs began to fall;
John Barleycorn got up again,
And sore surpris'd them all.

For some reason your post made me think of:

Oh and see a man at the back as a matter of fact
His eyes are as red as the sun
And the girl in the corner let no one ignore her
Cause she thinks she's the passionate one

Oh Yeah! It was like lightning
Everybody was fighting
And the music was soothing
And they all started grooving

CHORUS
Yeah, Yeah, Yeah-Yeah-Yeah
And the man in the back said everyone attack
And it turned into a ballroom blitz
And the girl in the corner said boy I want to warn you
It'll turn into a ballroom blitz
Ballroom blitz (x4)

Oh reaching out for something
Touching nothing's all I ever do
Oh I softly call you over
When you appear there's nothing left of you

And the man in the back is ready to crack
As he raises his hands to the sky
And the girl in the corner is everyone's woman
She could kill you with a wink of her eye

Oh Yeah! It was electric
So prefectly hectic
And the band started leaving
Cause they all stopped breathing

CHORUS Repeat


Must have been your reference to the man in the mac, which is what I used to think the lyrics to this song where.

So since the man in the mac is obviously Death, are you suggesting that's the unnamed god?

(I know, someone will point me to a place far, far back in this thread--apologies in advance.)

I guess it COULD be - but there's no "Obvious" about it - we rather thought Joyce meant Christ - because the minute you put 12 disciples together, Jesus is the 13th at the dinner (funny, none of the Christian studies group people ever seemed to get that? same way the two old ladies spitting watermelon seeds from the top of Nelson's Pillar went ZOOM over their heads.)

I really need to go back and find the pages with all the unnamed god references and check them out - but it did remind me of Joyce and the 'man in the mack' (- and there's that lovely Thursday/Friday bit I didn't remember sitting right there). Myself, I had a couple visions of Howard Hughes and Elvis, but Elvis was Baptist and didn't drink and Hughes (before he went overly nutty) kept hiring Mormons specifically because they didn't drink - know any Jesse James -types notoriously into whiskey and water? But John Barleycorn IS whiskey (barley's the prime ingredient) - ? ? ? also most gods die and are resurrected.

From http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/16/sosteacher/english/32991.shtml:
Another observer (riddle-watcher?!) has said that "Bloom becomes Odysseus himself, partly because he is seeking answers from the dead and is trying to find his way back to a place where he feels more comfortable. He is ill at ease at the funeral because the priest is speaking of the rebirth of the soul, and he doesn't believe in it. As far as Bloom is concerned, dead is dead." But he also can’t work out who the man in the macintosh is:
"Now who is that lanky looking galoot over there in the macintosh? Now who is he I’d like to know? …Always someone turns up you never dreamt of.
And later on, he muses:
"Twelve. I’m thirteen. No. The chap in the macintosh is thirteen. Death’s number. Where the deuce did he pop out of?"
He clearly – in this riddle-game – is supposed to represent death, or some have said Joyce, putting himself in his own story, in his own macintosh. But it is also his father, and it is also the outsider, someone who is not one of the sacred twelve disciples (just as Bloom is a Jewish outsider), again, just as Joyce was felt himself to be an outsider, and living in not quite respectable (if bohemian!) exile.

quote:

Originally posted by jazzcat:
From http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/16/sosteacher/english/32991.shtml:
Another observer (riddle-watcher?!) has said that "Bloom becomes Odysseus himself, partly because he is seeking answers from the dead and is trying to find his way back to a place where he feels more comfortable. He is ill at ease at the funeral because the priest is speaking of the rebirth of the soul, and he doesn't believe in it. As far as Bloom is concerned, dead is dead." But he also can’t work out who the man in the macintosh is:
"Now who is that lanky looking galoot over there in the macintosh? Now who is he I’d like to know? …Always someone turns up you never dreamt of.
And later on, he muses:
"Twelve. I’m thirteen. No. The chap in the macintosh is thirteen. Death’s number. Where the deuce did he pop out of?"
He clearly – in this riddle-game – is supposed to represent death, or some have said Joyce, putting himself in his own story, in his own macintosh. But it is also his father, and it is also the outsider, someone who is not one of the sacred twelve disciples (just as Bloom is a Jewish outsider), again, just as Joyce was felt himself to be an outsider, and living in not quite respectable (if bohemian!) exile.

It turns it and it turns it, over and over again. He's also a father of a dead child and is freaking because he sees a child's coffin go by. Jesus, as 13th, is either dead or on the way - to be reborn. Gods are reborn. Christians have granted it unto themselves and Catholics are quite certain of it - and are willing to have quite a miserable time while waiting for it. (Stephen Daedelus lost his mother, has a father he can't model, the Church isn't working for him - he's really unhappy).

The man in the mack - to keep the Death link -could as easily be the Holy Spirit (okay they're supposed to be separate but Joyce has issues with the Church's decisions at the Council of Nicaea establishing this.) And when he dives off into that spin about Shakespeare losing his son Hamnet Shakespeare and also appearing in 'Hamlet' playing the part of the ghost - the dead father, it helps to remember that Joyce taught a class in Shakespeare apocrypha at that Berlitz school in Trieste and that one of the floating bits of Shakespeare apocrypha was that Shakespeare's own father was a butcher (which would make a mighty fine image for the Holy Spirit.) It's also safe to say that Bloom is quite aware that Jesus is also a Jew, it's the reborn Saviour part that's a question.

BTW: that web site isn't going to answer your Joycean conundrums in any real depth and I wouldn't recommend it. I read the rest of the link and it totally bugs me that they treat the book as an exposure of Joyce's love-hate relationship with Dublin. Bogus! - you've got to remember it's a story first and take into account that you're seeing it through a character and it's coloured by their moods. Also the links/allusions Joyce built in are pretty central to the plot - you may get through reading the book without picking them up but you're never going to understand it. He's not just trying to tease or test a reader - a lot of it has some elliptical meaning for him that comes back to the character and the storyline.

Anyway - none of that answers who the unnamed god is in 'American Gods' (it's just that that drop in mystery god is very reminiscent). I'm still thinking some legendary cowboy reference - or then Vegas has all those great hotels done as Temples - but I don't know who the originals were sacred to??

Okay, my vote on this is Elegua, an African God:

He's the Guardian of the Crossroads of Life. Whenever there are decisions to be made, he provides opportunities and second chances - if you're lucky. As a Trickster God, the childlike ELEGUA can sometimes make things even more complicated. At a whim he can turn a simple choice into a vast conundrum of paradox.

He's also messenger to the higher Gods, particularly OLORUN, and he does like to be noticed.

When I read AG for the first time, after the first appearance of the forgettable god (at H.o.t.R.), I snickered and thought Gaiman had slipped in a cameo of Dream of the Endless, as Shadow thinks "I'm tired" after closely inspecting his strange passenger, an impression nobody seems to notice in that context, but that theory only lasted until the meeting in Vegas.

Hmmmmm... I can see how the character of "the forgettable god" is there for a certain purpose and how being identified would defeat that purpose. So far the character just works like a charm, doesn't it?

But if he's meant to be identified I guess there's a hint in AG disqualifying one of the more popular suggestions: One of the few fictional places in AG is named Nottamun which I understand as saying: Not Amun!


Maybe he's "the original man in black" Johnny Cash!?! ???

Btw. does anybody else wonder why Wednesday apologizes to him? Quote: "Look, I'm sorry about what went down in Wisconsin. But I got you all out safely, didn't I? No one was hurt."

That implies that his power of not-being-noticed (or however you want to call it) only works with humans. So Odin's charm to know all the gods has nothing to do with it. At another point in the story Eostre is observing the arriving gods and, quote: "Nobody from the outside world even seemed to have noticed they were there." Hmmmm... believing is seeing, eh?



Question to readers of The Sandman: Hasn't Laphroaig been mentioned somewhere in a Sandman story?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Novemberchild,

|Could be Hades - could be Plutus (Greek god of wealth, possibly with a sideline in secrets, thought where got that idea is lost to me), heck, if you want to get all obsessive about detail and look at what he was drinking - Laphroaig, a scotch whisky - he could be a Celtic figure of wealth.

For a while, though, I was really stuck on the idea that he was a god who still lived but whose name had been lost, like those South American dieties that you occasionally come across that are referred to as 'Unnamed God K' or something like that, or the Germanic Hammer God. Nobody could remember his name because it had been forgotten, but he still lived because he embodied something as universal as trade and the movement of wealth.

But mostly I think he's Plutus.

In the vein of the previous suggestion that the "Forgettable God" is "Luck";

To have real power as a God you have to have worshippers, or have had worshippers recently (apparently you will very slowly wane in power when belief, or perhaps adoration grows sparse).

As stated in the book, America is a poor land for Gods, since people tend to believe in nothing much, except technologies and trends that quickly fall out of belief again (like the Steam Train Gods).

The "Forgettable God" seems to still have real power, and Wednesday/Wotan goes to see him first, and with a pricey gift. In the rest of the book Wedbesday will always associate only with old, traditional Gods... But as we have learned folk heroes can be deified, and so it's not a long stretch to believe that <b>ideas</b> , principles and abstractions can be.

My suggestion:
A God that is both very old, and still relevant today. The Forgettable God is Mammon.

The Invisible Hand. The Market.

Never actually named a God (though he is in the Bible, Mammon is more of a principle than a person in that passage), but worshipped by billions, and never more worshipped than in modern day USA.

I read Neil's reasoning in the FAQ for not announcing who he based the Unnamed God on, but has he ever told anyone? Maybe in a private email or something? These kinds of debates always make me nuts.

I am going crazy, because I have read references to this particular god before, but nobody who writes about him seems inclined to identify him.
I don't think it was Hades or "luck", and nobody else mentioned so far seems to make sense. He is literally an un-named god, not an obscure reference to another god that we are all familiar with.
In one book that I read and can't seem to track down again, I think he was connected to the Norse pantheon, or some European-but-not-Celtic pantheon.
If any of this sounds at all familiar to anyone, please save my sanity and let me know.