I am about half way through American Gods. I'm really enjoying it. I especially appreciate the location of the action at this moment, in a fictional town in Northern Wisconsin. As a native of Upper Michigan, and a linguist, I have noticed a few linguistic and cultural inaccuracies in the book.

(1) p. 209: "a yoopie thing" and "the yoopie". As a native of the UP (Upper Peninsula of Michigan) I have never seen UP spelt anyway other than using the acronym "UP". For instance, in The Daily News from Iron Mountain from Jan 3, 2003 an article's title reads "Hospital acquires more stock in UP health plan". Also the transcription "yoopie" might read "you pie" (like apple pie) to most readers.

(2) p. 209: Pasties for breakfast? This seems even stranger to me than pizza for breakfast. You'd be very ulikely to find fresh pasties on the breakfast menu in any restaurant in the UP or Northern Wisconsin. I don't know anyone who would think of ordering one or offering one for breakfast.

(3) p. 209: He ate the pasty with a napkin in his hand? Perhaps the miners used to eat them like this but I have never seen anyone eat a pasty any other way than with a plate and a fork. In the UK pasties might be eaten the the original way, by hand, I don't know, but not in the UP.

(4) p. 197: "...around here folks who know me just call me plain Hinzelmann." A native of Northern Wisconsin like Hinzelmann would unlikely use "folks" in this sense. He would say "people".

(5) p. 197: "a popover at every plate". A restaurant in a Northern Wisconsin town would be very unlikely to serve a popover, and a native like Hinzelmann would be unlikely to know what one is let alone use this word spontaneously to describe a local restaurant's cuisine.

(6) p. 198: "tear the insides out and modernize". Again, Hinzelmann wouldn't say this. He'd probably say "remodel it" or "gut it and remodel it".

(7) p. 198: "Now he was the finest buck I ever did see." No deer hunter from N. Wisconsin would say this. He'd say something like "He was the nicest buck I ever seen."

(8) p. 199: Hinzelmann would never use the word "stag" unless he was talking about a kind of party. He'd say "buck".

(9) p. 199: "...there's no way I can bring myself to shoot a defenseless critter..." No one native to Northern Wisconsin or Upper Michigan would use the word critter in normal speech. Hinzelmann would say simply "animal".

Mostly, I'd say, Hinzelmann' portrayal is fairly accurate. I liked the use of "acrost" for "across". That's pretty linguistically accurate.

Does anyone know if Neil Gaiman pays attention to these discussions and comments?

(first time I responded, AOL bumped me, and I lost the text. Pardon me if my response is more hurried) My response page #'s refer to the US paperback

What a strange response to the book. Well, first, no, Neil doesn't contribute to the boards. You can contact him via the FAQ area of neilgaiman.com (link at the bottom of the journal)

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Originally posted by Brenden:
As a native of Upper Michigan, and a linguist, I have noticed a few linguistic and cultural inaccuracies in the book.

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Neil is also a resident of the area, living somewhere near Minneapolis, so he may be familiar with customs a little more west than you.

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(1) p. 209: "a yoopie thing" and "the yoopie". As a native of the UP (Upper Peninsula of Michigan) I have never seen UP spelt anyway other than using the acronym "UP". ...Also the transcription "yoopie" might read "you pie" (like apple pie) to most readers.

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A look on google showed yoopie being used by Michiganians, although admitedly as pet names. A newspaper would be more formal, so it would use UP. Neil clarifys pronounciation here: "Upper Peninsula. U.P. Yoopie." p267

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(2) p. 209: Pasties for breakfast?

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A quick look at a pasties site suggests it is for lunch or dinner traditionally. (http://arts.state.wi.us/static/folkdir/hodgson3.htm) However, the policeman could have been exposing a newcomer to local customs and tastes, especially a half frozen one needing something warm and hearty. Why can't a pasty be made fresh in the morning? The miners wives would've had to... anyway, since the restraunt is "almost empty" (p266), so we can assume breakfast rush is over and this is a late breakfast.

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(3) p. 209: He ate the pasty with a napkin in his hand?

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Check out the site I linked above. "Dorothy's mom first wrapped the pasty in paper and then wrapped it with cloth. Men who worked in the mines often wore bib overalls, and they would put the wrapped pasty in their front pocket. Body heat would keep the pasty warm until they reached the mine"

(5) p. 197: "a popover at every plate". A restaurant in a Northern Wisconsin town would be very unlikely to serve a popover[/quote]
"Fred's Wagon Wheel
2891 County O South
Delavan, Wisconsin
414-728-8831
Note: I telephoned Fred's Wagon Wheel. A pleasant woman assured me that yes, they still serve popovers. She informed me that the popovers are served in a bread basket with dinner and that when they run out, they're out, so get there early!"
http://home.insightbb.com/~bonnett/popover/popover_restaurants.htm

As for Hinzelman's speech... I'm sure there are Wisconsin folk who say critters instead of animals. Saying no one from area X would ever say Y is sure to be wrong. It may not be the norm, but ruling it out completely is silly. And who says he's native to Wisconsin anyway?

AHHHH! I missed the part about you being only 1/2 through the book. So . . . I'll just offer this option for now:

Having said that, it may be just as likely that Mr. Gaiman was writing dialogue the way he's heard it, and just slipped up a bit while extrapolating the conversations. Who knows?

Maure.

______________________________
eurydice underground: a miscellany
Obfuscations and Inconsequentials: a journal

[This message was edited by Maure on January 04, 2003 at 10:46 AM.]

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Originally posted by Brenden:
(1) p. 209: "a yoopie thing" and "the yoopie". As a native of the UP (Upper Peninsula of Michigan) I have never seen UP spelt anyway other than using the acronym "UP". For instance, in The Daily News from Iron Mountain from Jan 3, 2003 an article's title reads "Hospital acquires more stock in UP health plan". Also the transcription "yoopie" might read "you pie" (like apple pie) to most readers.

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Hmm. I'm from Illinois, and I've definitely heard the term "yoopie" before, both here and on visits to the UP.

Also... well, you are in the spoiler section, but you might want to finish reading the book! Maybe if you know more about Hinzelmann it might make more sense for him to say "stag" and... stuff. Yeah.

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"Give me all your cookies and I won't have you killed."
-- Tom Servo

I would like to clarify the points I have made. First regarding the transcription "yoopie", I repeat I HAVE NEVER SEEN the acronym "UP" (pronounced yoo-pee) spelt "yoopie" as Gaiman does. Whether a noun or an adjective it is always "UP" (pronounced "yoo-pee" or [jupi] in IPA, stressed on the second syllable. A search of "yoopie" on Yahoo turned up nothing in reference to the UP. The word "Yooper" exists and is used, though in a somewhat different sense and with some varying connotations attached. A search of "Yooper" on Yahoo turned up many references to the Upper Peninsula. I repeat, Gaimain's invention of the word "yoopie" because how to pronounce it is unclear for the average reader. I could find no pronunciation explanation on the page the responder has indicated.

My point about pasties is not that they couldn't be eaten for breakfast, in fact I'm sure some people do just as some people eat pizza for breakfast. My point was that if Gaiman was attempting to use a local element to create an interesting, local scene for the action why not present it as it would normally be? If an author had set a scene say in Spain where the protagonist has Spanish tortilla for breakfast (potato omelette) this would seem strange to a person from Spain since a tortilla, despite being typical to the Spanish diet, would seem out of place as a breakfast item. Why not put it in its appropriate context if its reason for being there is to simply provide background.

As far as Hinzelmann's language is concerned, I maintain that he does not sound in many instances like someone from Northern Wisconsin, in others he does. The use of dialect and regionalisms here is inconsistent. No, I haven't finished the book. If Hinzelmann does indeed end up not being native to Northern Wisconsin this could explain it. At this point, howver, I'm unconvinced.

ok, let's say, with no more detail, that Hinzelmann might not be originally from Northern Wisconsin... if he's lived there long enough, he's probably picked up some local words and expressions, but still does not speak entirely like somebody who's born and raised there.
Hey, I come from Belgium and live in Virginia: I say stuff nobody here would ever say, but in the next sentence I can jsu as well use 3 expressions that are typical from here.

______________________________________
Fail with consequence
Lose with eloquence
And smile.
-The Notwist

I don't think "yoopie" was confusing for the average reader -- I am an average reader, and I understood it just fine.

As for Hinzelmann, you deserve to be spoiled, posting uninformed (only halfway through the book) nit-pickings in the Spoilers section . . . but I'll hold my tongue.

Except to suggest that maybe Hinzelmann was around when the miners held pasties in napkins and ate them for breakfast, and maybe the habit has just stuck with him.

Maure.

______________________________
eurydice underground: a miscellany
Obfuscations and Inconsequentials: a journal

Living in northeast iowa, i didn't have any complaints about it.

We are writing the Future in Letters of Fire

I just did a Google search for "yoopie" and there are two different Michigan universities with Mascots called "Youpie", so I'd guess it's not unknown.

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Originally posted by Brenden:
I could find no pronunciation explanation on the page the responder has indicated.

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we have different editions. As I said, I was citing the US paperback, where the scene is in the 260s. Your book has it about 60 pages earlier. That's why I quoted what I was referring to.

A thought just occured to me. I'm a linguist too after all. In Belgium where I'm from (small country), there are some small lexical differences differences in cities that are situated less than one hour from each other. I've never been to Wisconsin or thereabouts, but from what I got from AG, that part of the US was mainly settled by people from Germany and Scandinavia. Is it not possible that Gaiman's Lakeside was settled by people from, say, Sweden and Bavaria mainly, whereas the town next door mainly has a population from, I don't knw, western Norway and Schleswig-Holstein. Or something. That would account for some diversity in speech.

______________________________________
Fail with consequence
Lose with eloquence
And smile.
-The Notwist

Ahem. Pedant!
Sorry, but thats getting seriously nitpicking.

Anyway, the location is ficticious, so the traditions of the area are too, and unless you've been in every restauant in every town in the UP, you don't know wether somewhere does serve pasties for breakfast or not. God knows, people will sell anything.

And you can eat pasties froma napkin, provided they're not too goopy inside. Seen it done, done it myself, admitedly not in the US, but in England, Ireland, France and Israel, so I figure its not too weird a thing to do. easier and neater than a knife and fork, frankly.

And as for lexical differences, I agree with CountZero, you can have a lot of differences over a small area (take Belfast, for starters), plus you don't yet know everything about Hinzelman. There is a reason for the way he talks, if you will be patient and read on. And as well as that, remember Neil Gaiman is not American. He's not going to be 100% accurate at getting the tiniest details of an area thats not even his own country. He's doing pretty well.

And as for the UP/yoopie thing, as far as I remember its always used in dialogue, so what NG writes is what Shadow hears. Its phonetic representation. Initially at least, Shadow isn't even sure what they're referring too, so writing yoopie makes perfect sense.

I think you should finish the book and then it'll make more sense.

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'I'm insane. What's his excuse?'

In the northern portion of Burlington, my home town, you order hamburgers at a restaurant. In the southern portion, you order burgers. That's how it reads on the menus. A town of 120 000 that needs two different words for the same foodstuff. The reason? Until the turn of the century, we were two towns, joined together by contract in 1911. Although the term "hamburger" didn't show up as a reference to a beef patty sandwich, my hometown has always maintained itself as two different groups of people, though we've been one town for almost a century.

Never underestimate the ability of language to mutate over a very short distance.

Good, my dog found the chainsaw.
-Lilo

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Originally posted by marymac:
Ahem. Pedant!
Sorry, but thats getting seriously nitpicking.

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It surely is, but since we're here anyhow...

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And you can eat pasties froma napkin, provided they're not too goopy inside. Seen it done, done it myself, admitedly not in the US, but in England, Ireland, France and Israel, so I figure its not too weird a thing to do. easier and neater than a knife and fork, frankly.

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And I've eaten them from a napkin in Madison, Wisconsin -- there's a hole-in-the-wall takeaway place within spitting distance of the Capitol Building that does lovely pasties. I haven't been by there any time earlier than about 11am though, so I'll try to remember to check their breakfast availability next time I'm in the city.

Right time to try and set some pasty facts right!
I am English I used to bake for one of the best pasty shops in Cornwall, so here goes.

(1) Pasties for breakfast.
Traditionaly, no. but why not We used to Serve hot pasties to lorry drivers almost 24 hours they are easy to eat on the go and are hearty and filling. we also made special breakfast paties with egg, beans and sausage in!

(2) Pasties wrapped in napkins.
Absolutly no reason why not. Although the reason pasties are like they are is that the where eaten by tin miners in cornwall. in Cornish tin mines there is a high level of arsenic. A pasty could be eaten by holding the crust and therefore never needing to get arsenic coated hands near your mouth. never a healthy idea.

As an aside the crusts where often left malignent sprites known as "knockers" to ensure their favour.

Hinzelmann is NOT a native of Wisconsin. He's a god that was created somewhere else in America and wandered into Lakeside one day, and decided to stay there. He doesn't use EXACT Wisconsin vernacular simply because HE'S NOT FROM WISCONSIN.

No, I think it says in the book that he originated in the old world, a Bavarian forest, I think.

SPOILER



He starded out as a god, then became a Kobold (a malignant creature who steals away naughty children.) Kobold is corrupted in English to Goblin. Hinzelmann is described more than once as goblin-like, isn't he?