Hey all -

I'm new to this site, so please pardon me (and point me in the right direction) if this has been discussed already.

Are there any thoughts on why NG chose to stage the parley (and Wednesday's subsequent "betrayal") in a Masonic lodge?

Mr. Gaiman seems to always have a reason for making specific choices like that, but I don't know if this was just a winger out of left field, or if the Masons are supposed to represent something thematic, or what.

Any ideas? Thanks.

quote:

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Originally posted by Steve B:
Hey all -

I'm new to this site, so please pardon me (and point me in the right direction) if this has been discussed already.

Are there any thoughts on why NG chose to stage the parley (and Wednesday's subsequent "betrayal") in a Masonic lodge?

Mr. Gaiman seems to always have a reason for making specific choices like that, but I don't know if this was just a winger out of left field, or if the Masons are supposed to represent something thematic, or what.

Any ideas? Thanks.

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Steve B,

I'm suprised that no one responded to this before. The Free and Associated Masons have quite a dubious history. People more than often assocaite things with them that are 'mystical' and sometimes Satanic. The origin of the freemasons allegedly comes from the Knights Templar, a personal fetish Of Gaimans. They were crusaders who stayed in the Holy Lands long after everyone else skipped town back to Yurrip. They adopted the ways of the Muslims (dress and facial hair) and were much feared in Battle. When the finally returned to Europe, they had amassed quite a bit of money (they personally took vows of chastity and poverty) They are often credited with the beginnings of modern banking, keepers of the Holy Grail, and a host of other things.

They were disbanded by the French King Philip IV and Pope Clement V as heretics and many were killed or fled (mainly to Scotland) Their lengend grew from there.

Essentially the story is when they came to the Americas, they formed the Freemasons.

Some books to read:
Dungeon, Fire, and Sword
by JOhn J Robinson

Focault's Pendelum
by Umberto Eco

This website:
http://www.templarhistory.com

As a side note, if you are a Sandman fan, the Sandman statue that Randy Bowen sculpted some time ago was based on one of three known statues in the Western World. It was discovered in a vault discovered only by the bombing of London in 1944. The vault belonged to the Knights Templar.

HTH,
Cheers,

Mannanan

Also, The Man Who would be King is a movie that's at least partially about Masons, as well as a book by Rudyard Kipling, although I have not read the book I say very sheepishly.

Also, the Masons are the "secret society" that supposedly dates back to the earliest days of Western culture (it starts in Egypt with the priests of Hermes Trismegistus), so they would represent the repository of all religions and the final "secret" as to their unity.

If you're interested in the history of masonry, read Hiram Key. It's written by masons, and from time to time is somewhat dubious, but it's still a good read, and it does make you wonder if there really is something behind it all.

It does explain the history of the Knight Templars too, to some extent.

Templars were officially founded to protect the pilgrims who wanted to go to the Holy Land. This seems rather misproportioned task, given that there were nine original members, and the order didn't accept new members until a decade later, and even then their numbers were very limited. In 1128 they created their latin code, and with that, were granted a religious confirmation by by Pope Honorius II. This papal confirmation allowed their members and their temples to serve no king except God, which meant that no king could tax them.

The Order had strict rules, but it did attract lot of attention in Europe, and many young nobles and peasants too joined it's ranks. They gave up their possessions (lands, money, horses etc.) to the Temple, which soon became very wealthy. They also were infamous for their fighting abilities, and their rules forbid escape unless facing one to three or more opponents. In 1187 Jerusalem fell, and Knights Templars returned to Europe.

There, they turned political. It was a powerful organization, with lots of land and resources and money, and it had lost it's cause. There was no longer pilgrims to Jerusalem. They were the first bankers, at least in western lands.

In the end their arrogance turned French king Phillipe le Bel against them. Their arrogance, and the fact that Phillipe was broke. In 1307 Phillipe arrested all serving Templars in France, and attempted to sequestrate all the Order's possessions. The accusations and evidence which lead to the arrest is hardly conclusive. It contained such items as sodomy, satan worshiping, use of familiars, practise of spitting at the crusifix, and the intepretation of the order's rule as to allow any sin as long as the result benefits the temple.

But he still couldn't judge the Order, because it was answerable to God and Pope only, so he turned to Pope (can't remember his name), who refuced. Phillipe dismisssed him, and created a new Pope (a second one), Pope Clement V (a friend of Phillipe), who quickly issued a bull against the order in 1312.

After this, it's speculation. Many Templars fled to Scotland, and fought with Robert the Bruce against the English. In Spain it just changed it's name and continued as usual.

Freemansonry on the other hand, dates propably back to 16th century, even thought their secret history claims they are descendants of the builders of the original Temple of Solomon, or even earlier, from the Egypt in the (if I recall correctly) 13-14th century BC.

It is a fraternity for healthy and respectable males over 21, who believe in the Supreme Being. It propably started as a moral organization, which compared the building of the spirit and mind and religion to that of building a cathedral, or any real physical building. They have degrees, which are based strongly on symbolism and early christian mythology. There is no significant evidence to suggest that they would actually be descendants from any real oraganized masonry (if they were, they'd be the oldest worker's union ever). Many influencial people joined up, and especially in the New World it gained strong foothold.

But as to the original guestion, I think the masonic lodge could have been symbolic on the part of the New Gods. Much like the boxing ring in Lock Stock and Two Smoking Barrels. Just a cool stylish setting to cause unnerving in those who are forced to participate.

Also, the doctrines of masonry are based on concept of betrayal. Three masons known as Juwes assaulted Hiram Abif for secret knowledge. When he refuced to teach it to them, each in their turn stoke him, finally killing him, and thus, lost the secret knowledge for good.

Maybe there is some symbolism in that. On New God's part, or Wednesday's, or mr Gaiman's.

-daniel

Thanks to those who responded about Masonry in general. To be clear, I do know a bit about the rituals, symbolism, literal history and romantic history of Freemasons, because I am one.

I guess my question goes beyond wondering what people know (or, more commonly, assume) about Masonry. I'm more concerned here with what Mr. Gaiman was trying to say about Masons when he put a lodge in American Gods. I don't have any bones to pick with him; I'm just curious.

Maybe this is the sort of question that can't be answered by anyone other than NG himself. I've read most of his work, but I don't recall many other Masonic references in them (other than, maybe, the reference to Faith, Hope, and Charity in one of the Sandman issues - F, H, & C are three big tenets of Masonry, but we're certainly not the only people to lay claim to that particular triumverate of virtues).

Does anybody recall any other references to Masons in his other stuff? I'm always curious to see how Freemasons are portrayed in mainstream media.

Also, I wonder if the fact that NG is British has anything to do with his feelings toward Masonry - Masons in England tend to be much more secretive than those in America, so they can be viewed with quite a bit of distrust in that country.

On the square,

Steve B

A lot of people have a problem with the Masons, you'll get the hairy eyeball in China (and like totalitarian regimes) if you're sporting a square and compasses visibly. I know something about this, I've come from the East.

You might view the addition of the lodge in the book as a kind of nondenominational church, the kind of place an anthropomorphic deity might feel comfortable in.

Just a thought.


Alex

masonry is about being able to worship your own idea of the Supreme Being(s) right?

... and doing good in their name(s)

in that way, a Masonic Lodge would be neutral ground with a little extra... it's open for worshippers of all gods, so all the gods would feel welcome there, and it being a place of worship... the thing they're all fighting for... would make it all the more appropriate

i think.

It is also said that the Masons are a lower branch of the Illuminati. Considering that the Illuminati are said to be responsible for much of the chaos and war in the world, isn't it reasonable to think that Wednesday and Lyesmith may have also had this in mind?

If you don't mind my saying, as I understand it, Masonry worships an almighty god, yes? But so far as I know, no specific name is given to this god. Perhpas that is why they liked meeting there- general worship where everyone gets a piece of the pie, but nobody specifically. And it never ceases to amuse me quite how open the supposedly secret society of Masonry is. If you want mainstream, there are some refernces in Monty Python as I recall (guy in his underwear, one sock and antlers on his head, sash across his chest reading "I am a freemason" standing at a busstop)