Right. I know that everybody and their grandmother have already posted about this, but a friend of mine and I were discussing it tonight, and through our combined (lack of) wits, have come up with a bit of a theory.

Nameless god = Judeo-Christan God
Shadow = Jesus

Yes, I realize that this probably has been said before, but we've come up with quite a few ways to tie it all together/supporting evidence, so, without further ado...

(And please excuse any misinformation. The majority of my reading of this book, which was only read through once, was done before bed. Naturally, this means that I was getting more than a bit sleepy through parts of it, and my recollection is a bit foggy. Combine that with the fact that I'm not a Christian, and I think I get a bit of room for error.)

How Is The Nameless God 'God'?

1. First of all, the whole nameless thing is one of the major factors. Unless we bring Lilith into the equation, the Judeo-Christian God is in fact nameless.

2. Secondly, the fact that the details of his appearance are hazy, at best, in the memory of the people who meet him. And let no man paint or sculpt God's image.

3. More on the whole 'people forgetting him' thing. I believe that there's a point in the Bible (Exodus?) where God states that no man may look upon him, 'face to face', and 'as a peer'. That could be why the gods all seem to remember the nameless one, but humans like Shadow forget him instantly.

4. As for the wealth issue, I came up with a strange idea concerning that. Consider it a possible 'jab' at the current state of Christianity, and its related religions. Look at the state of the church today. People live a life of sin six days of the week, come in on Sunday, donate a few dollars, and think that that buys them absolvement. The church is supposed to be God's house, and all that goes on there is the exchange of money for forgiveness. So naturally, God in this book, would be drawn to the movement of currency. It's all that he knows anymore. In today's day and age, it's money that people are worshipping, and looking to for forgiveness, not him. They believe in the dollar. Now I dare one of you to tell me that Gaiman would resist the urge to make that witty little observation.

5. This goes for the Shadow being Jesus thing, as well. I don't want anybody telling me that God and Jesus aren't 'struggling deities'. Truthfully, in today's world, they are. All deities are. That's the entire underlying moral to American Gods, in my eyes. People are forgetting beliefs, and turning to modern creature comforts for that warm spot that keeps them going. Let me put it to you this way. If tomorrow, two wars broke up, and everybody had to fight in one, tell me which you (honestly) think that the majority of the population would fight in. The one for the right to believe in God, or the one to keep television, the internet, radio, automobils, etc.? I thought so.

How Is Shadow Jesus?

1. Well firstly, there's the obvious, with his time on the tree. Nine days. Nine days, I'm informed, is the longest that a person survived on the cross (Jesus being 2-3, I think it was?).

2. Beyond the time, there's the whole idea of his being on that tree itself. There's no denying that (Jesus or not) that was intended to be at least somewhat reminiscent of a crucifix scene.

3. If somebody tells me that it was a Dogwood tree, I'll smile.

4. Throughout the entire book, all of the gods make comments to Shadow about his being special, and such. A majority then proceed to agree to come with Wednesday, only because of Shadow/his actions. I realize that this is a bit of a stretch, but consider them his Apostles, for a split second. He's crucified, and they all leave him on the cross. He comes back, they're all suddenly there for him, and he just forgives them, without a word about it.

5. Taking the above a bit further, two words. Wednesday. Judas.

6. The forgiveness Shadow shows throught the book, while not a solid 'THIS IS WHY' example sticks in my mind. Namely, the scene in the diner where Wednesday shortchanges the girl, and Shadow passes her a $10. Wednesday then proceeds to list her sins, and Shadow simply replies with a, "That doesn't make it right." Also, the fact that he so easily forgave Laura. Uh huh.

7. The resurrection after he was crucified, by Easter. The Christian celebration of Jesus' rebirth. Coincidence?

8. When Shadow was hanging from the tree, and Mr. Town comes. He takes the stick, and jabs it into Shadow's side, not penetrating skin. This stick, of course intended to be thrown as a spear, in honor of a pagan god. Mr. Town takes a second look, and blood is pouring from a wound in Shadow's side.

9. I suppose I could really stretch things here, and get into Zorya Polunochnaya thing. She gives Shadow the silver coin. Silver coins, eh, Judas connection, blah blah. You all know how it works.

10. It could also be considered following in his father's footsteps ('God' in our theory... hear us out) when Shadow faces his trials after death. He says that all that he has to give is his name. Doing so, he becomes a nameless one too, and interestingly enough, it's after this that he starts consciously using and understanding 'powers' (ie. moving Chad Mulligan's mind, etc.).

11. The quote that Neil chose to open the book also struck an odd chord. It was something to the effect of Christ and the Apostles never coming to North America. Shadow's born overseas, and comes to the U.S. He loses his name, and shortly thereafter heads back 'home'.

Tie-Togethers (The Stuff That Makes This Crap Make Sense):

1. Wednesday didn't actually say that he's Shadow's father. Shadow asked if Wednesday needed a son, and Wednesday said, "I needed you," which is nicely vague and troubling to a theorist.

2. But, let's assume for a minute, that Wednesday really does believe that he's Shadow's father. Now let's also assume that he didn't impregnate Shadow's mother, but she pulled a Virgin Mary. Wednesday goes in, thinks that Shadow is his own child, but ultimately, Shadow is his undoing. Wouldn't that coup be a nice comment on the way Christianity rolled in and cut paganism off at so many passes, in the early days?

3. Assuming that Shadow is a modern Jesus, and the nameless god is the Christian God, it's safe to say that Shadow is an agent of God. Further commentary on Christianity's destruction of the pagan beliefs, in an agent of the Christian All-Father thwarting the pagan All-Father, and being the motivation in the death of his 'agent' (Loki).

4. Shadow's 'real' name was Baldur Moon? Baldur, the name of Odin's son. Following the Virgin Mary theory, with Wednesday believing that he's the father, that's easily explained away. And Moon? Zorya gave him the Moon. There's your answer as to why he has the name Baldur Moon, which (if we're correct), was a very, very nice diversionary tactic on Neil's part. It led people down a completely opposite train of thought. And as for the whole Moon before Zorya thing? These are gods, people. Don't question a theory that fits nicely.

Okay, I've typed too much. And I know that I've forgotten a good half of the points that we came up with, so, yeah...

If my partner in crime would kindly step up, and get what I forgot? =/

really, i'm stunned by your observations...but they are plausible.

um...Laura Moon?

Yeah, that's nice...
I'm still not convinced that the unnamed god is the Judeo-Christian God, but your arguments make sense.
As for Shadow, as said here before, there was a lot of Christian influences on latter-day Norse mythology: Baldr is in many ways similar to Jesus, either by influence or because both myths had a common idea of a "good god" to start with, or a combination of both...

______________________________________
Fail with consequence
Lose with eloquence
And smile.
-The Notwist

Hate to shoot a hole in this theory, but

I'm doing my 2nd draft of the index, came accross this, and thought I'd post it for you. From Neil's journal June 2001:
"Jesus actually did turn up in a scene which I cut, as it just didn't work, but I figured a book about American Religion was not the book I wanted to write, which was about American belief, so I let some things go..."

I think there was another thread that needed this posted, so I'm off to look for it

Well how about this.. In greek the word Hades means "unseen". Legend has that hades had a helmet of invisiblity, so he would be unseen by the living and the dead. The greeks (Roman too) also cleed him Pluto which just happens to mean "wealth. Hence, Hades/Pluto/Ploutos connection would suggest that he is an unseen God of wealth. Check it out on some of the mythology sites or search for "Mythology and God of wealth", you'll end up with Pluto/Hades. Shadow recalls that he could not remember the dude only the impression of wealth. And what better spot for one drawn to wealth than Vegas. remember when he is down in the vault, watching the guys count the money, and later he rewards the waitress with a tip on meeting a guy who is going to win lots of cash. The description shows him seeing a matrix in his head, watching the flow of money and finding a "node", almost like finding the motherlode in a mine or cave...very much an underworld theme. I also think Las vegas may have ties to the Underworld via the mafia and stuff like that. Vegas does have Caesar's palace and the Luxor, but does it have a parthenon or acroplolis? I did't find any references to any other Greek and Roman gods in the book, but could this be one? Pretty far fetched thinking, but what the heck.

Your observations are very good.
But I think the book is about forgotten gods and the Christian God is not forgotten.

the thing about the christian god is he is not a god believed to walk around and do things. A believer in odin or thor wouldn't be very surprised to hear that his cousins neighbors friend actually met thor or odin. Same with anansi, or leprechauns.

Also, the judeo-christian god DOES have a name. it is YHWH.

Shadow's friends did not leave him because they betrayed him. He had sworn an oath to stand vigil for Odin. They even tried to convince him not to. It was of his own free will.

It's not a coincidence that he was ressurected by easter, but it's not because it's the date of the ressurection of jesus. Easter was an old pagan celebration of fertility (go ahead and tell me easter rabbits have more to do with jesus than fertility) and spring and life.

Most of your points are fairly plausible, but I honestly don't think neil meant shadow to be parallel to jesus. it's just that the story of jesus is such a common story. A nice man who is betrayed by his friends, yet still forgives them. The son of a god.

OK, before I start, yes I am a Christian, so you can take what I say with that knowledge if you want to disagree with me because of my faith.
I read your theory about the nameless God and shadow being Jesus. It was interesting, but I could poke so many holes throught it would look like swiss cheese. Besides your comments about church's today being all bout money and faith is not real, which does happen in many places, but does not happen in many more, God is still worshipped, which does not make sense with the nameless god thing.
Now there were some very good points about the simularities of shadow and Jesus, but it still does not pan out. Jesus sacrificed himself for the whole world, shadow because he thought it was his duty. Jesus was on the cross for less than a day, shadow was on the tree for a lot longer. Shadow was brought back by easter, jesus brought himself back.
I know at this point you think I am biased and crazy, and that is fair, but I do really beleive what I say about Jesus and God. They are real, if not to you, to me at least, and they differences for outway the simularities in your comparison.
I did not see shadow out speaking and healing and having disciples. Anyway. I do give credit for your inventivness, but I dissagree.
Here is a funny thought though, you can say God does not exsist, but he loves you anyway.
Peace

Yeah. Also there's no coincidence that nine days is exactly how long Odin stayed on the gallows. Also the fact that Shadow is hung, not crucified indicates that he has a bigger connection to Odin than to Christ.

Also, Wednsday does indicate directly that Shadow is his son. When shadow returns to the final battle, Wednsday comments that he needed someone to hold his vigil, and a son's vigil is particularly powerful.

Plus which, Christ does show up in passing in the book. Ibis comments that, although he's doing well in America, people have seen him pretty down on his luck in Afghanistan. Which means he's someone else.

Eh, it would be ironic if he was a Christian-figure because save that mention of Jesus, I can't really recall many distinct Christian figures as say, Norse, in the book, hence, the Judeo-Christians were "forgotten."

Hi there folks, my name is Mark and I am a writer who used to be in seminary (Cleric School) before overwhelming problems lead me away from the church.

I would like to debunk this theory as much as it needs to be debunked, not because of my feelings on faith, but because of my feelings on literature. If you have the time, I would like to go point by point, so this may take a while:

1. The Christian God is not nameless by any long shot. Whether you call God, well God (notice the uppercase 'G', indicating a proper noun), or Yahweh, or I am, or Jehovah, there are plenty of name choices.

2 and 3. One who looks upon the face of God does not forget God, but rather is destroyed by God. This is why, aside from issues of fealty, prayer usually involves a bowing of the head.

4. Umm... A bit of a stretch. Possible, but a bit of a stretch.

5. Debatable, but, like point 4, not really evidence, in a deductive, socratic logic, deconstructionism sort of way.

Shadow =Jesus?
1. First off, nine days is not the longest anyone survived on the cross, many lived for multiple weeks. Jesus, on the other hand, lasted only a few hours.

2. Well, it's a sacrificial scene, but it alludes to Odin. I mean, saying that it is allusion to crucifiction is the same as saying that all the post-modern Gilgamesh stories are emulating Noah's flood. It's Gilgamesh's flood. It's Odin's death.

3. It's not a dogwood tree, so don't worry.

4. You say that it is a bit of a stretch to say that the other gods are like Jesus' apostles. You're right. First off that is a stretch. Second off, it's disciples, the apostles are Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; who were not followers of Jesus (directly).

5. Saying that Wednesday deals with Ash Wednesday is wrong in a number of ways. First off, you're misplacing symbolism again, with the same person as a matter-o'-fact. Second, Jesus wasn't killed on ash wednesday, he was killed on good friday, resurrected on Easter Sunday. I know, they all seem so interchangable.

6. Shadow maybe forgiving, but not in a Dosteyofski's "The Idiot" kind of way. Saying that someone doesn't deserve to be stolen from isn't exactly dying for their sins.

7. I think the book does a fair job discounting the "Easter" thing. Though, I will admit that doesn't discount this idea. Unfortunately, almost everything else does.

8. Once again, the stabbing with a spear is a part of the story of Odin. The real coincidence you are looking at is the fact that the Christ story has a lot of commonalities with other religious tales.

9. You would really be stretching things to call the silver coin a Judas connection. But only marginally more than you are stretching the rest of things.

10. I'm not sure what this has to do with anything.

11. Fine.

Tie-Togethers
1. Yes, Wednesday did say that Shadow was his son, in affect. There is such a thing as dramatic structure, and all signs point to yes on this one, should this have turned out to be some sort of badly done red herring, I would be disappointed, and very surprised.

2. To much assuming here to touch this.

3. "Assuming that Shadow is a modern Jesus, and the nameless god is the Christian God, it's safe to say that Shadow is an agent of God. Further commentary on Christianity's destruction of the pagan beliefs, in an agent of teh Christian all-father thwarting the pagan All-Father, and being the motivation in the death of his 'agent' (Loki)"...
Careful, if you reach much harder you might sprain something.

4. Neil seems like a nice guy. Why would he go through such circuitous manipulations and distractions without ever clueing them in? Misinformation is one thing, but disinformation in a story can't very well exist. After all, what you have is what is written. Achem's Razor my friend, Achem's razor.

I'm sure the flurry of ideas you and your friend had were quite exciting. But they simply don't hold water; either through religion or through literature.

(A great point by point ... but it's Occam's Razor, not Achem's.

- Cho, parenthetically )

Actually, coming back from the dead is a pretty standard way of proving divine lineage... see Mithras, Dionisis, Osirus, possibly Orpheus, various others, if someone wants to list... and more than one also had virgin mothers, and died hanging from something tall...

I think the death of Shadow is more of a reference to the old Celtic and Norse traditions- the yearly cycle god, Green Man, Hanging Man, Burning Man... These traditions were later related to Christ... possibly a spoonful of honey to help Rome's new religion go down. If someone knows the specifics of this, that would be nice, 'cause all I've got is vauge memories of snippets of things from the Discovery Channel.

By the way, I'm pretty sure the nameless god was Luck... or Fortune, that sounds better... although that does not quite seem to explain why no one can remember his name.

I'm quite sure I've seen this post before... did you just posted again or it was some kind of forum-mess-up?

Hello

I do not think the forgetfull god is Yahweh, but I do have a feeling he is related to the issue. YHWH was originally a thunder god, part of politheistic pantheon. After his upsurge as one, true, monotheistic God, his collegues were rapidly forgotten...
I can't give names yet but I'm researching if anyone of them had something to do with luck...

Nicivin: Nope, either the forum messed up, or I'm channeling one of your other members, 'cause this is only the second time I've been on this board, and all the posts I've left have been different, unless I've just developed selective amnesia.

Well... it was a while ago, maybe you just weren't a member then. But I'm pretty sure I've seen this post before. I'll try to find it on the board history (or whatsoever) to make sure anyway.

Im inclined to think the deities were grouped by mythos. The Egyptian and Norse dieties for example. Its all about immigrant gods and how they did not fit, Allah and Yaweh (yes he has a name in some judeo christian texts) are not addressed, prob to avoid the big Devil vs God Americans get into.
No, I think the unnamed god is based on the Egyptians, specifically the Pharohs. There was one who had his name stricken from all his monuments (by his successor). Pharohs were considered dieties and worshiped etc. This is more in keeping with Mrs Ibis, Annubis etc. The location in Vegas is simple. There is at least one Casino/hotel based on Egypt, including a Pharoh. He is wealthy and respected, just not remembered. Only one instance of his name remained, all other were literally carved from walls and stricken from written records. Iroinically I don't remember his name but could easily research Egyptian history. I learned about this while visiting a museum exhibit some years ago. I think only one small funery statue had his name. The only one who knows for sure is Mr G. (it might have been one of the Ramsees, I or II...)

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Dream_Walker,

Correction, not Ramsees. I did a bit more research...
Im not sure if this is the same Pharoah but here goes:
Info drawn from site athttp://www.akhet.co.uk/amarna/akhstory.htm
The 'Heretic' Akhenaten. Despised by his successors and all but erased from history.
Akhenaten was a Ruler of Egypt during the 18th Dynasty. When Akhenaten ascended to the throne the priests of Amun controlled much of Egypt. The temples were wealthy and powerful and Akhenaten may have seen their destruction as the way to further his own ambitions. (DW: similar to the 'war') Effectively in Atenism the Pharaoh was the only person who could make offerings directly to the God, which would have given him power as both religious and political leader. (DW: powering up this guy to turn into a special being)
Akhenaten, possibly in a move to lessen the political power of the Priests, introduced the worship of one god, the Aten, or Sun disk. (DW: sun gods and gold disks abound in the book) This meant that the Pharaoh, not the priesthood, was the sole link between the population and the Aten which effectively ended the power of the various temples.
The cult of the Aten is considered by some to be a predecessor of modern monotheism.
When Akhenaten established his new religion he built an entire city dedicated to the Aten complete with a necropolis and royal tomb. (DW: kind of like Las Vegas built from scratch) This city was Akhetaten and at the peak of Akhenaten's reign over 20,000 people lived there. The city was built in middle Egypt, on a site thought to have been chosen as it was not tainted by the worship of other gods.
After the death of Akhenaten the city was abandoned, and the old religions which had been suppressed quickly re-established their control over Egypt. DW: This series of events is similar to the upheval in the book, and practice of stealing power from other gods by destoying them. Many of the stories of NG have recurring themes and so many similarities might have made Akhenaten stand out as a god of choice.