In the Thessalid, a character makes a joke to the effect that Dream obviously had a death wish, and since Death was his sister, Dream secretly lusted after her. It was a joke, but does anyone think there's any truth in it?
Also, I'm not making a judgement. Kings and gods are exempt from mortal taboos, and Endless definatly fall into that catagory, at least to me...

The Floyd was going to write a story about a romance between Dream and Delerium producing fever dreams

You know what I'd like to see?

The Endless on "Jerry Springer".

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kristin:
You know what I'd like to see?

The Endless on "Jerry Springer".

---

Sibling anthropomorphic personifications who can't get along.. on the next Jerry Springer.

Dream gets up from his chair and tries to hurt Desire. A terrified stage hand try to get Dream to sit back down.
Someone should do this as a comic. Really it would could be hilarious.

"He never made love to a loaf of bread. Unless of course he found one in his bed."

...actually, getting serious and back on track, I'm not surprised at the theory. I had thought of it before the Thessiliad. (I always mean to write a fic about it, but...)

To me, it makes a /lot/ of sense. Death and Dream have a very close relationship--probably the only really meaningful relationship in his life that he doesn't fuck up. All of the women in Dream's life are for the most part, powerful beings. There's the Fae Queen, Thessaly, the muse, Nada the Queen...(and these are just the ones we know about!)

So maybe he is secretly in love with his sister. But he can never have her, so he compensates by dating all these powerful women in the hopes that eventually, he'll get that not being a total bastard thing right. And if it is true...well, poor Dream.

"She who saw her enemy couched in the grass, and loved him for his beauty and his grace, and charmed him there, despite himself, and lived to tell the tale."

-Meredith Ann Pierce, The Son of Summer Stars

And then there's the connection between death and dreams. Of all the images in dreams, most cultures recognize images of death as being among the most potent. And then there's the old saw about death in dreams meaning that you die in real life. Except possibly Desire and Dream, no two Endless share a stronger connection. And the desires you see in your dreams are, by their very nature, unrequited. It doesn't matter how vivid your dream is about sleeping with your would-be girlfriend, if it hasn't happened in real life, that desire probably won't fade a bit.

I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.
- Douglas Adams

I think Delerium and Dream have the strongest thematic connection. If you doubt me, stay awake for a day or two: first comes delerium, closly followed by dreams. When you have a fever, the two intermingle. Actually, that reminds me of a fic I was going to write: some incest occurs between Death and Delerium, thus creating the horridly mutated Fever Dreams. They're a shunned, outcast tribe, and only live in those weak and sickly.... seriously.

I think that Death and Dream definitely share a connection, and while this is debatable, I think the romance between them that is so impossible and forbidden somehow translated into his relationship with Thessaly. I know Thessaly is far from being Death but think about it, they seem to be the only ones who are perfectly fine with immortality and all the ramifications that come along with it. In the Kindly Ones, Thessaly says that rules don't apply to Death, and that she is a cold bitch. She sounds like she is describing herself almost, remember a Game of yOu, when she caused all that meteorological damage because she was on some warpath to destroy the fantasy world of Barbie? She totally ignored the rules and pissed Morpheus off. I know this is totally dubious but I think that of all his lovers, Morpheus loved Thessaly most, there is no doubt that Calliope barely affected him, and Titania, well we don't even know what happened there, and Alianora, well he just became a bigger workoholic when she died, but when Thessaly left, he was totally depressed and he even took on a journey on the pretext of finding Destruction in order to meet her again in the waking world, that is LOVE. He didn't seem to even have a scrap of pride left which he wanted to hold on to, whilst with Nada, who was a pretty big Love, it was because of pride that he condemned her to 10000 years in hell.

Ok, i will stop obsessing. Comments anyone?

Yes, you could be right, Murphy could have loved Tessaly more than any other lover. But that's not what wanted to talk about.

Dream's feelings for his sister. That's a fascinating subject. Endlessly fascinating, if you'd pardon the pun.

There's no actual references. None at all. He's always percectly formal when adressing her. As has been stated, he's got a thing for rules.
That's obviously why he could never admit, on any level, that he has anything but brotherly feelings for her. It'd be against the rules.
And, knowing exactly how much she cares about rules (not at all), and knowing she will always love him, with all her heart*, no matter what he does or says to her, he realizes she could love him back - in an incestous fashion - if she knew how he felt.
Maybe he's also afraid she does know, as she seems to know so many things. (She did indeed say everyone knows everything, as he no doubt will not forget.)
And of course, no matter what, he must be angsty and moody about things, so maybe he would not allow Death to make him happy. Or more precisely, he wouldn't allow himself to become happy, as she no doubt could make him if they spent more time together. Maybe he couldn't bear the thought of her being sad because she can't make him happy ...

*Death's feelings towards Dream is far simpler. She loves everyone with all her heart, no matter what they think or feel or do, you know?
But I just realized maybe Death is unable to love anyone in any other way than platonically. Or, I'm quite sure she never has. This could lead to another fascinating subject, I'll save it for later. (I've already said more, i think, than I've ever done before on the same subject.)
(Makes note: Death's feelings.)

------------------------------

Gaiman is the bestest EVARIE! Eh, I mean Sandman. ^_^;;
*intentionally vague positive remark*

[This message was edited by Aegwyn on September 22, 2002 at 12:53 PM.]

yes I know what was intended. I agree that Death adn Dream are perfect for each other, she seems to be the perkiest person around and yet he can completely tolerate her and enjoy her company. He loves her, I have no doubt about that, and she is the only one who can read him completely. She knows exactly what he is thinking, before he even knows that he is thinking it. Do I think they are a match made in Heaven (for lack of a better word) Definitely? After all they look almost like twins, and there has always been a connection between them that is far deeper than any of the siblings. I think it is sad however that as you mentioned, Death loves EVERYONE that way, while Dream is especially devoted to her. I do believe they share a connection far deeper and complex than any other in all of the Sandman collection, certainly, it transcends all categories of love platonic, romantic, etc. But sexual? I absolutely disagree. Desire aside, the rest of the Endless seem pretty un-sexual if you know what I mean. Being older than time itself, I would think sex is no longer top priority. Quite simply, Death and Dream are above that.
I had hoped however for a further exploration of their relationship and its complexities in the comics, and maybe Death's personal take on Dream's demise, after all, she was kinda the one who took his hand, and then he died, but she was just well...there
Honestly, I think if Dream had had his sister as a constant companion, he would never have become so trapped within himself and his own rules, but then he wouldn't be Morpheus would he?

I wonder though, if Death will be partial and cold to Daniel. He can never replace Morpheus, but will there be a transferrence of emotion.

Um, Death may be "beyond" sex (though I still rather think she isn't even "at" sex yet), but Dream definelty isn't, as we can see in the Wake, where his old lovers talk about him ... or in Tales in the Sand, where he and Nada are making love ... maybe someplace else, but I don't remember.

------------------------------

Gaiman is the bestest EVARIE! Eh, I mean Sandman. ^_^;;
*intentionally vague positive remark*

Hell no.

It's all wrong and incredibly sick.

Also, though dream may tend to stick to the rules, he is the romantic sort. if he genuinely loved Death that way, he would have pursued her properly (the way he'd pursued Nada even though Endless-mortal relationships were forbidden).

I think the idea of incest between Death and Dream is ridiculous.
They are brother and sister. They have a special bond, like many brothers and sisters have, that's all. The fact that the rest of the Endless family doesn't get along well doens't mean that dream and Death cannot be close to each other. Despair and Desire are close too, and no one suggests nothing so ridiculous.

As has been pointed, Death is like that with everyone, but more than that, Death and Dream are two sides of a same coin. I read in the SAndman Companion Caitlin Kiernan talking about them: she said Death and Dream were the two types of goth, the goth with a positive attitude and the gloomy goth. It kind of makes sense.
I think they are both very similar, only Death has chosen to be positive and cheerful, and Dream chose to be tragic -now Death tries to make her brother understand he doesn't have to be that way, and Dream probably likes her company coz he might secretely want to be like her.

Didn't we ditch the idea there was an incestous relationship between the panels? The question, as i see it, is in what way Dream loves Death. And I still se no evidence he doesn't hide a love that's somewhat different than what's allowed ... Actually I have nothing new to say here. *points at her post before her post before this one*

------------------------------

Gaiman is the bestest EVARIE! Eh, I mean Sandman. ^_^;;
*intentionally vague positive remark*

Neil talks about this on his FAQ blog here:
http://www.neilgaiman.com/faq/blog.asp

Compared with Thessaly, Death would be a good match. She isn't, as far as I know, psycho. And I love her, dammit...

Thanks for pointing that out, clover. I missed it myself, somehow ... (It was me asking the question, ya know.)

Well I guess that clears things up. ^_^

------------------------------

Gaiman is the bestest EVARIE! Eh, I mean Sandman. ^_^;;
*intentionally vague positive remark*

Well, I don't think Death and Sandman had anything between them. In fact, Death is far away from sex and every time they're together, Death acts as the elder sister, not as the hey-man-come-and-make-me-feel-like-a-woman girl you supose to see.
D

We've covered this ground in the thread already. Those of us who think this idea may have some merit are not even talking about a sexual relationship between the two. Hell, I wasn't even talking about something Dream was conciously aware of. (Hah.)

I mean, I know Neil didn't intend this, and still doesn't really consider it valid, but...eh. I kind of buy it, either on the romantic or even the close companion or brother/sisterly level. Dream's obviously got a desperate need to be in love and loved in return, and whose to say that if he didn't have his druthers, he might choose to spend a lot of time with Death. She's the one source of positive relationship that he hasn't fucked over in his years of being.

So maybe the 'incest' charge is the wrong way to frame it. Incest is well, nasty for all people to think about. Instead of labeling it that, maybe we should discuss why it is that Dream seems to hold Death up to such a devoted paragon of virtue, and how that relationship changes the rest of his relationships.

"She who saw her enemy couched in the grass, and loved him for his beauty and his grace, and charmed him there, despite himself, and lived to tell the tale."

-Meredith Ann Pierce, The Son of Summer Stars

I still say that some people and some beings are above conventional morality. Its okay for Ian McKellan to have a boyfriend half his age because he's damn cool. Its okay for the Endless to commit incest because they're so far beyond mortals that the normal rules really don't apply. So its not a condemnation-- just an observation.
And yes, i am a horrible elitist. Deal with it.

quote:

---

Originally posted by SkywaterBlue:
Instead of labeling it that, maybe we should discuss why it is that Dream seems to hold Death up to such a devoted paragon of virtue ...

---

*sigh*
Because she's his sister. And they get on well, and understand each other, and have fun, and love each other and respect each other...
Is it so difficult to understand that one brother and one sister can have a great relationship? Some brothers and sisters dont get on well, some even hate each other, some are indifferent towards each other, some indeed have incestuous or ambiguous relationsihps, but some also just plainly love each other.

And I dont think I've ever read that Dream holds Death as a paragon of virtue or anything remotely like it. He just values her opinions and asks her for advice, which he sometimes follows, coz he probably trusts her sister's judgement. Like a lot of brothers/sisters in the world.