Isn't it true that Daniel, in "The Wake," refers to "the person responsible for the Death of the first Despair," not "the person who killed the first Despair"? I think this convoluted wording suggests that she wasn't killed outright. Perhpas she was mistreated or rejected, and, like Delirium in Endless Nights, she went "too far into herself"; if "going inside" led Del to complete, incoherent madness--the logical conclusion of her function-- I can see how it might have led Despair to suicide.

Superman.


Seriously... the way they've been writing him lately? He beat up Darkseid and didn't break a sweat... he'll be retconned to have beaten up Endless next, I bet.


(I'm joking... er, i hope i'm joking, because i'm not joking about the "beating up Darkseid" part)

Excelsior!

~~~~~~~~~

You can either be part of the problem or part of the solution, but in the end, being part of the problem is much more fun.

"To fall in love is to create a religion with a fallible God"-- Jorge Luis Borges

http://lon.blogspot.com Its a slightly less eloquent me

Oceanlee makes a very good point, and at one point I believe that destruction says that all of the endless define their opposites. Dream defines reality, Death defines life, Desire defines, I don't know, disappointment, maybe. Despair in the same way defines happiness. Maybe that's got something to do with it.

Relax, you fiends! I'm only joking.
http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=phool2056

So Batman angsted her to death?

Excelsior!

~~~~~~~~~

You can either be part of the problem or part of the solution, but in the end, being part of the problem is much more fun.

"I'm living in my car now. My car loves me. I mean, it wouldn't
have grown a real vagina for me otherwise, would it?" -- Warren Ellis

"To fall in love is to create a religion with a fallible God"-- Jorge Luis Borges

http://lon.blogspot.com Its a slightly less eloquent me

When I say 'killed' I don't think I mean that. In fact I don't think any of the Endless could be killed if they didn't want to (and in a way, they can't die anyway).

By killer, I suppose I mean the one whose actions are intentional in bringing down the Endless. Lyta Hall in Dreams case, and an unamed one in the case of Despair.

I like the idea that Despair took on a lover, and that it was he (or she) that led to the demise of the first 'Despair'. Perhaps because 'Despair' was happy which goes against the anthromorphization of 'Despair'. Or there was a lovers tiff somewhere, in which 'Desire' had a hand in. Maybe it's a little too classic Shakespearen, the tragic lovers, but it's an age old concept!

Hrm.... maybe it was a Constantine, and in killing Despair his family was cursed eternally.

When i write my story, i might make it a Wayne who gets cursed... or some ancient, mystical ancestor of the Waynes.

*shrug* Giving Neil's love of obscure DC characters, i'd go in that direction... so its obvious that Despair was killed by either Captain Carrrot or Ambush Bug!

Excelsior!

~~~~~~~~~

You can either be part of the problem or part of the solution, but in the end, being part of the problem is much more fun.

"I'm living in my car now. My car loves me. I mean, it wouldn't
have grown a real vagina for me otherwise, would it?" -- Warren Ellis

"To fall in love is to create a religion with a fallible God"-- Jorge Luis Borges

http://lon.blogspot.com Its a slightly less eloquent me

AAAAAAAAAAAAAA

I just realized something!!!! The Endless define their opposites. What is the opposite of Despair? Happiness ofcourse. Geee and what's a synonime for happiness? DELIGHT!!!!!!!! Despair's death could be what caused Delight (for that instant between instents when their was no Despair) to loose definition, to loose focus, to begin to change.

I like Glamourweaver's idea. At the begining of The Wake, when Delirium meets up with her siblings, she says something like "It's me. Delirium. It's not anybody else." Not to expect her to be rational, but may she says this because there's was some reason to expect "somebody else"; maybe "somebody else"--Delirium, or an entityin transition--whoed up in place of Delight at the last wake for an endless.

(It did appear to be Delirium at the Necropolis in the World's End story, right?)

I apologize if this is answered in Endless Nights, since I can't afford it yet, but if Delight caused the final Destruction of the first dispair...perhaps that is the cause for her inward turning change - perhaps her loss of delight is in the sorrow of losing a sibling or something to that effect.

And perhaps Destruction's spark for going was the destruction of his own sister.

I dont have a solid timeline to back it, but theoretically it explains Del's change, Dest's revolt and despair's final demise.

I apologize if this is answered in Endless Nights, since I can't afford it yet, but if Delight caused the final Destruction of the first dispair...perhaps that is the cause for her inward turning change - perhaps her loss of delight is in the sorrow of losing a sibling or something to that effect.

And perhaps Destruction's spark for going was the destruction of his own sister.

I dont have a solid timeline to back it, but theoretically it explains Del's change, Dest's revolt and despair's final demise. And perhaps the reason Del is so fond of Destruction - the reason she looks for him and their peculiar relationship.

Nah, those things are all too cronologically separate. Neil doesn't fuck with his timeline. It's a clever thought, though. Maybe I'm wrong.

Relax, you fiends! I'm only joking.
http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=phool2056

No the AWOL Destruction factor doesn't work, the death of Despair, and Delights transformation both occure before human history on earth, if not human life on earth. Destruction is still active as an Endless in the Orpheus special and even as far up to the black death and the early Enlightenment.
(see Fables & Reflections, and Brief Lives)

true. i forgot he was still around at the wedding etc.

but do we know the Del/Despair timeline? If they were both pre-man, do we know how near each other they were?

Not really. I think Delight became Delirium before Despair died, if that's what you're asking.

I base it solely on the line "We came here for you a long time ago. Well that wasn't here and it wasn't you, but we did anyway." (Delirium to Despair in the Necropolis, in The Wake.) I'm only guessing that she wouldn't say "we" if she wasn't herself (I.E. Delight) at the time.

-----------------------
The Will to Help and The Will to Use is what separates good people from bad. I think.

Of course Delirium could have been Delirium at Desparir's wake but not before Despair died; she could have changed (or begun to change, or finished changing) at the moment she heard about the loss of her sister.

This could be why she says "it's me...not anyone else" when she arrives at Dream's wake; she, or her siblings, could have expected the loss of brother to induce another change.

About the Delirium/Delight angle, peeps? I think we should backtrack to the story Cerements from The Sandman Library #8: Worlds' End. Pay close attention to the shadows the Endless cast (Was it shadows or more of silhouettes? Could someone please check?) - and you'll notice that the form of their youngest sibling is that of a small girl similar to the one we've seen in the Heart of a Star story and not that of a slightly older girl which is the form taken by Delirium.

But did Neil write that in, or was it Michael Zulli (who I think drew that one) taking creative license with the look of the character? He makes Delirium look pretty young in the actual funeral portion of The Wake, to the best of my recollection...

Relax, you fiends! I'm only joking.
http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=phool2056

quote:

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Originally posted by Glamourweaver:
I just realized something!!!! The Endless define their opposites. What is the opposite of Despair? Happiness ofcourse. Geee and what's a synonime for happiness? DELIGHT!!!!!!!! Despair's death could be what caused Delight (for that instant between instents when their was no Despair) to loose definition, to loose focus, to begin to change.

---

I'm not sure I agree with that. As I recall, Morpheus says to Despair that "without dreams there could be no despair" (or something like that) in reply to her saying that dreams are nothing. If this is correct, Dream would be despair's opposite, and not Delirium/Delight. Nevertheless, I don't think that all the endless are opposites of each other. In Fables & Reflections, Destruction claims that Destiny opposes freedom, and Dream opposes reality, among other things. My $0,02 on despair's killer identity is that he or she isn't a character we know from the series. It'll probably turn out to be some twisted human

Yeah, I don't think any of them are opposites to each other. They all in many ways encompass their own opposites. The way that Desire is so hateful, and Death is so lively, and Dream is so practical are all intentional, I'm sure.

Relax, you fiends! I'm only joking.
http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=phool2056

Blue Benten said:

quote:

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the form of their youngest sibling is that of a small girl similar to the one we've seen in the Heart of a Star story and not that of a slightly older girl which is the form taken by Delirium.

---

Remember, though, that we've seen an image of an older-looking Delight (in Destiny's garden, when she and Dream see an image of her receiving tribute from visitors to her realm. Del seems to be the only Endless who ages noticeably
--somewhere, her change from Delight is described as "growing up, or at least groiwng older"--but I think her apparent age changes
with her mood, and Delirium could sometimes look younger than Delight.

In this sense, you could see Del as the opposite of Destiny. Not only is one the oldest and one the youngest, but they represent opposite ways of looking at time or endlessness: one represents a permanent, unchanging plan, and one represents transience or disordered time. Remember the saying on Delirium's sundial--"Tempus Frangit," time shattered.