Okay, so I've read in a couple places now that Lucien being the 'first raven' is a metaphor for him being the 'first man,' i.e. Adam. This makes sense, and I've just kind of accepted it as a fact up until now.

But I was just thinking - where does this idea come from? I didn't catch that particular instance of symbolism for myself when reading Sandman; how do these 'Lucien=Adam' folks justify their claims?

Is there another phrase or something that alludes to it and the whole idea make sense? I'm just not seeing it.

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“Whether you and I and a few others will renew the world some day remains to be seen.
But within ourselves we must renew it each day.” –Herman Hesse

The first raven myth far outdates the Adam myth. I don't think they are necessarily the same thing at all. I've read the equation of the two as well, but don't agree with it. In The Kindly Ones Cain relates one of his late brother's tales about the world being created by a raven. So that might imply that the first raven is the creator of this world, and if Lucian is the first raven... hmmm......

A friend of mine has a great library of mythology books. I'll look into this. I love raven tales... or would that be raven tails?

Haft sá hún liggja undir Hveralundi,
lægjarns líki Loka áþekkjan ...

From page 246 of the hardback version of "The Sandman Companion" by Hy Bender, Neil says,

"But that's not the only direction from which Lucien came. I was also thinking of George MacDonald's book Lilith, which describes a tall man in a frock coat who turns into a raven, and who is actually Adam, the first man. That image always stuck in my mind, and it definitely informed my handling of Lucien, who's dressed in a frock coat and - as is revealed in part 12 of The Kindly Ones - began as the first raven."

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Gingerly, I clunked down the tunnel, eager to surprise my prey.

Thanks, was looking for the same quote myself - you got there first though *shakes hand!*

*fades into the night once more...*

Thanks, Primate...

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“Whether you and I and a few others will renew the world some day remains to be seen.
But within ourselves we must renew it each day.” –Herman Hesse

Just one of those things that stuck in my head. . .

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Gingerly, I clunked down the tunnel, eager to surprise my prey.

quote:

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Originally posted by The Happy Nihilist:
Okay, so I've read in a couple places now that Lucien being the 'first raven' is a metaphor for him being the 'first man,' i.e. Adam. This makes sense, and I've just kind of accepted it as a fact up until now.

But I was just thinking - where _does_ this idea come from? I didn't catch that particular instance of symbolism for myself when reading Sandman; how do these 'Lucien=Adam' folks justify their claims?

Is there another phrase or something that alludes to it and the whole idea make sense? I'm just not seeing it.

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It's one of those things that seems obvious when pointed out to you [cf. Hy Bender's "Sandman Companion]. Anyway, the logic is as follows:

Dream's Raven traditionally lives in Eve's cave, and is, in fact, her companion. (There's a few scenes with Eve and Matthew in the series, "The Wake" springs to mind here)

The Raven is a man who dies and is given the opportunity to live in the Dreaming as Dream's Raven, e.g. when Matt Cable was killed in "Swamp Thing". (loads of references by Matthew to his past life, "Brief Lives").

Lucien is revealed at the end of the series to be the first of the Ravens, and thus by implication is Adam, the first man.

Lucien and Cain also look very similar, though this is serendipitous. (They were created by same artist in 1970s). Also there's an issue (think it's "A Parliment of Rooks" but don't quote me) where Cain makes a remark like "It's been a long time since the whole family was together", and Lucien's there as well.