Ok, this is a long one.
This question looks like the kind of question that really freaked fans might scream in front of Neil's house, ready to break in and cut his throat if he refuses to answer properly. Don't worry Neil, that's not my case. I didn't keep reading Sandman over and over until I found something that seemed odd and then ran here to tell you guys. It was just something that came to me when I first read "Season of mists", and I thought maybe we could discuss it.
At one point of that great arch, Lord Morpheus tells Matthew that Lucifer is much more powerful than he is - that in fact the fallen angel is the most powerful entity at that time, save only his creator. That felt strange to me, since Lucifer and the christian God probably came out of the Dreaming, as any other gods, and will go back there when we stop believing them. And it's frequently said about the Endless, along the series, that they are not gods for gods only exist while the faith in them exists whereas the Endless will always be, etcetera. So how can a god, or a goddish creature, be more powerful than Mighty Lord of Dreams?
Of course, the christian faith is the biggest of our times. Maybe that's where Lucifer got all his strenght, but I still feel in my guts that Morpheus should be able to kick his fallen ass anytime. And I also thought it was strange that Lucifer knew so much about other religions, as he shows on "Sandman presents Lucifer" talking about the navajos. (Alright, that's not a Gaiman story. But it's a close relative to the Sandman tales.)
Only yesterday I remembered that on the same "Season of mists" there's a conversation between to gods from different cultures talking about yet another mithology - people discussing why the greek gods didn't show any interest in the key of hell. So, gods seem to know each other, wich is really smart and funny. So, as someone already pointed out to me, maybe Lucifer has just been so long around that he got quite a bag of knowlegde.
That same someone said to me that Gaiman's "rules" on Sandman would be flexible rather than hard. And I agree with that. I'm not trying to exposure a weak point on the Sandman stories; quite frankly, I don'nt think there are any. The whole thing is a masterpiece. But any real masterpiece leaves us with a bunch of questions in our heads when it ends (how did the first Despair die? Who was the brain behind Daniel's kidnapping?) and I thought this one might start a discussion. But I'm not that sure. Anyway, there's more where that came from. Gotta go now. Nice talking to ya.
Lucas

[This message has been edited by Lucas Murtinho (edited 06-20-2001).]

As far as I see it, I believe that Neil is ackowledging that God exists in the Sandman world. This God created everything including Lucifer and the other gods and dieties. I don't God came out the Dreaming, but the gods (little g) have and their power comes from faith (Gee, am I talking about Sandman?)

Now Dreama and the rest of the endless are completely different entities. In fact, they really aren't entities. They are "anthropomorphic personifications." Each one has dominion over a certain aspect whereas Lucifer can draw upon different areas and find weaknesses or just use pure brute force.

Since this fight was suppose to taking place out of the Dreaming, then Dream has limited power in comparison if the battle was held in the Heart of the Dreaming. If the battle took place in the Dreaming, then Dream would have the upper hand because he can use the entire realm as a weapon.

I can't add directly to the conversation, but thought it would be fun to post this quote from a 1989 interview to see how it affected anything (if at all). That is, Neil saying that the DC universe does have a GOD, so how does that affect his little realm.

"I'm also currently talking to DC about an idea I had ages ago that they turned down out of hand, and then asked me to do when I wasn't interested, but now I've thought of another way to do it and I'm getting quite interested. It is a multi-part crossover number, a way of doing that which doesn't send lots of people out to buy comics they don't want, and it would be called 'Light.' It would be about the nature of religion and God in the DC universe, like magic exists, Hell exists, they are things there is evidence for, there is life after death. On this basis I think we can say that God exists in the DC universe."..."It just struck me that in a universe where you obviously do have God, what if we sent a number of DC characters off to meet him/her/it?" -Neil Gaiman, FA #109 (Jan 1989)

That's a pretty big event for a Neil back in 1989 when he wasn't well known. Remember In Jan 1989, the Sandman series would have been on issue 3 or 4. If DC went with the idea, the Neil that we know and love could be writing the action stuff.

Hey Lucas-I'm sorry, I had to say hi when I spotted ya.

I think those theorys are pretty sound too. And, I think I would have loved to see that series Neil was talking about...

maybe I haven´t understood anything at all and I should feel ashamed in such a smart company but...
I used to feel reasonably sure that "the brains behind Daniel´s kidnapping" was Loki.

xx.

quote:

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Originally posted by Cerberus:
maybe I haven´t understood anything at all and I should feel ashamed in such a smart company but...
I used to feel reasonably sure that "the brains behind Daniel´s kidnapping" was Loki.

xx.

---

I don't care what anyone says, I'm still think Desire was behind it all. "I'll bring the Kindly Ones down on his blasted head."

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Desire said that he/she had nothing to do with it. But I still think she had a hand in it, no matter what anyone says.

You're gonna call me crazy, but I think the master behind the curtains on little Daniel's kidnapping was Lord Morpheus himself.

Desire said that about calling the kindly ones during that emperor-of-the-states thing, didn't her? I think she only tried that once, in the Rose Walker affair. And I bought her/his story when she/he talked to Despair and said none of Daniel's robbery was her/his making. Wich reminds me, I think it was Despair herself who said that her/his twin didn't do it. But anyway.

Dream always let us know there was something big coming for Daniel. He set Loki free from his punishment and said to him he was in debt. Okay, Loki "will be under an obligation to no one". But when he returns to the underground and the nasty snake starts spitting in his eyes again, he realizes how he, the master of tricks, was wonderfully tricked.

It's only speculation, of course. But I suggest that Dream made Loki see how special Daniel was - maybe sending the little god to protect the baby or something. Then Loki went and robbed the baby, out of ungratitude - but that was exactly what Morpheus wanted.

Or... maybe Loki robbed Daniel according to the Dream King, and then decided to kill the boy, which wasn't in Dream's plans. Hence the sending of the Corinthium and Matthew to rescue the kid.

Or... anyway, Neil left much for us to speculate in this subject. Maybe it was that sad excuse for a sibling, Desire of the Endless. Maybe it was crazy little Loki Skywalker just messing things up a little bit. But it seems to me as a very sophisticated, very Dream-like kind of suicide. But then, of course, I might be wrong.
Lucas

nah, you're not crazy. Just think of it this way. You're the only sane person on the planet and everyone else is crazy. That's how I see it. (Then according to my own theory, you're crazy?)

is so funny how you call desire She, i've allway called He... i don't think anyone is adapted to see desire as a 2 sex thing, you see what you are expecting to see, if you think mans are atractive and you see Desire, you will think he is beatifull and so he's a man.. and vice-versa

(just something that ocured to me: the extreme biseexual must be the only ones really to see desire as a two sex thing.. i think...)

That is funny, or odd, how people reference Desire as a pronoun. I mean, that is the whole point of Desire's duality, but still...
I've always thought about it kind of like:
If you've ever worked with the public, and had one of those customers that you just weren't sure about, you have to perfect not using pronouns or addressing them at all. No, how are you doing today, sir; or here's your coffee, ma'am.
That's how I make Desire fit in my head, not as an inclusion of all available genders, more of an exclusion of specific gender, if that makes sense.
Probably not. I'm a B.A. in English (another one) and we are trained to make saying nothing sound good.

For my money i think the master behind the kidnapping is lucifer. After all he said that he would have his revenge after dream humiliated him, and i think giving dream the key to hell, and knowing what this would entail, was all part of an intricate plan for revenge. After all he is the devil, and isnt he supposed to be the master of subtle and intricate plans?

I always saw Desire as both, simply because it represents everything about Desires. But now that I think about it, the idea that Desire is an exclusive gender of it's own, and not really male or female, makes much more sense with my little mental 'Endless' theory.

Actually, I think Lucas is right on the money with this one. The whole conversation with Death at the end of TKO (a funny abbreviation, considering the circumstances) suggests that Dream was actually committing suicide, whether or not he admitted it to himself. Right before she takes his hand, Dream says, "I have made all the preparations necessary." To which she replies, "Hmph. You've been making them for ages. You just didn't let yourself know that was what you were doing." So, consciously or unconsciously, I believe that the entire Daniel kidnapping thing -- and, arguably, many of his actions in the entire series, including his dealings with the Thessalian -- can be viewed as a long, intricate suicide plan. Yes, very Dreamlike.

I don't know if it was an intentional suicide, but I can see it as a sub-conscious one. I strongly believe that on one level the enitire series was about tieing up loose ends. Morpheus lost too much time being captured and he couldn't change to adjust for lost time. That's not to say Morpheus couldn't change, just with the times and very slowly.

That bit Dreamsbay quoted was what first popped the idea in my head. And the capture of Sandman would be, maybe not the only, but the main reason for that strange and yes, possibly subconscious suicide. The idea of change is one of the strongest in the whole stories, and in those seventy years locked up Dream maybe acknowlegde he couldn't change as much as he had to; the solution was giving up and letting another aspect of himself take place.

It also gives to the whole series an idea of a true saga, not merely a bunch of stories with the same main character that occasionaly comes to and end. Each main arch would have its meaning, some small events would become bigger. But of course, there's no way to really prove it. Wich is, after all, part of the fun.

My utterly male heterosexual position makes me think of Desire always as a she, althought I try to be partial. Skywater's idea of a different gender for it is quite interesting, but at the same time one can't help giving Desire the face one wants to see - as Eyes With Feet (where do you people get those names from?) pointed out. It looks like a lady to me.
Lucas

[This message has been edited by Lucas Murtinho (edited 06-23-2001).]

I agree with Dreamsbay, I also think that Dream commited suicide subconsciously (sp?) since he realized that times have changed and he also needed to change but Dream as Morpheus was to rigid hence the only way it could be done was through reincarnation (sp?)

Somewhere, I can't remember where and I'm to lazy to go look it up, I read that Destruction is probably the most powerful being in the universe.

I think that the only reason Lucifer is more powerful than Dream outside of the Dreaming is because Morpheus follows 'rules' that he really doesn't need to follow but he always goes by the book anyway (unlike Death as pointed out by Thessaly).

I think there is one God the Creator in Sandman but only because Christianity is extremely powerful and that is what Christians believe, so reality was changed to suit their beliefs. ( kinda like in the dream of a thousand cats ) But the old gods are still around because they hang on to residual beliefs etc. And when Christianity falls, God the Creator may fall also and work at a gas station, who knows.

And now you know it all. Almost.
D.S. )))

Hmm, about the Daniel situation, I´ll post something about that in my "Deeper secrets" topic. Now for the question at hand:

At first it seems like yes, there´s a god who´s behind everything, including the Endless. And Lucifer was his servant. But I doubt that, I doubt it very much. It´s a few other things that make Morpheus afraid of Lucifer:

Firstly, he has to be afraid, it has to be a great adventure and a great risk he´s taking. It makes his rescuing of Nada more heroic. (That´s how he reasons, I think).

Secondly, Morph is very bound by his rules. Among those rules are to never kill anyone unless they threaten the Dreaming directly, so he could never kill Lucifer. Aslo, I think, among his rules is his use of his own powers. He has great power, no question about it, propabaly much greater than Lucifer. But he uses them subtly, on large scales, hardly ever in combat.

Lucifer, on the other hand, has power of a more explosive nature, power that can easily kill Morpheus. If he wanted to. (Note that he most likely didn´t want to at the end of "A hope in hell")

For those who particularly enjoyed "A Parliament of Rooks," I recall some interesting "PreAdamite" trivia...

According to the Book of Ezekiel, Lucifer was tossed from Heaven for rebelling against God, and for "corrupting the nations of the earth."

However, by the time of Genesis, Lucifer is already on the earth, implying that the Fall took place before Adam and Eve showed up.

If this is the case, who populated the "nations of the earth" that Lucifer corrupted earlier?

There is a God in the DCU (which includes Sandman). I would really like to see that crossover with Heaven, Hell, and the magical realms.