Mr. Cho has never bothered to read Sandman - he just listens to me rattle on about it. But he's picked up an awful lot (I can get really loquacious when I can't sleep ...).

Anyway, I was musing with pleasure over the scene in The Kindly Ones where Del was trying to get into Satan's nightclub hangout to find out more about what had happened to Dream, and Mazikeen tries to stop her. She threatens Mazikeen ("If you don't let me in, I will turn you into a demon half-face waitress night-club lady with a crush on her boss, and I'll make it so you've been that from the beginning of time to now and you'll never ever know if you were anything else and it will itch inside your head worse than little bugses ...") and the demoness is not at all amused, and perhaps even a little frightened.

Mr. Cho was certain that Delirium could mess with Mazikeen's head (or at least the half of it that's there...) just fine, but he was wondering whether Delirium had any dominion over the Morningstar himself.

Any thoughts?

- Cho

If there is a mind, there is the potential for Delerium. I think that sums it up nicely.

If Satan preps for battle first, no.

If Delerium sneak-attacks him through a third party (J.C.?), she could take Lucifer out.

I dunno, as powerful as the Endless are, Lucifer seems (as portrayed by Neil) to be an equal. Morpheous is wary of him when coming to claim back his items, and the other Angels are scared of him. Whether he could fight the older Endless is questionable, but I think that he could certainly send Delirium home crying.

I'm sorry for possibly nitpicking but it's not Satan's nightclub. It's Lucifer's. In Sandman, Lucifer was never referred to as Satan, and I think that is important. They aren't necessarily the same person.

OK, if you insist.

But whatever we call him, do you think that Delirium could actually mess with his mind?

- Cho

In the book of Judges, God sends an angel to attack the Amalekites. One angel, and a low-level functionary kind of angel, at that. The angel kills over 100 000 men in a single night.

Lucifer was the head of the Host at one point, levels and levels beyond that Old Testament warrior angel.

I think what terrifies people isn't so much the knowledge that Lucifer is powerful, it's the knowledge that no one really knows just how powerful Lucifer actually is.

Dream himself says in Season of Mists that Lucifer is far more powerful than him. He's the most powerful being in the Universe after His Creator.

sanity itself is providence of humanity insanity doubly so and Lucifer is the second most powerful being in the universe so del no matter how prepared would die

Hmmm... Dream said he feared Lucifer, not that Lucifer could kill him. We know that the Endless can die, but it has only happened twice in the entirety of the existence of this universe, and they get replaced right after.

There's also the matter of whether being "the most powerful being in the universe after his creator" is synonymous to "the second most powerful being in the universe." And whether the Endless are more or less powerful than whoever Lucifer's creator was. The obvious answer being, "It's God so duh," but the Gods in that universe are depicted as being created from belief- that is, the dreams of humanity. I don't see why the god of the Abrahamic religions should get a pass there- except in that so many people, likely including many readers and some of the creators of the DC Universe, actually do believe in him, and of course it's different if I believe in it.* Which I think is why it is possible for Lucifer to put the serious hurt on Dream if he wanted. But remember, in the comic, Dream chose death. He wasn't killed.

... I don't think Lucifer could kill Delirium. I think she's died too many times already for it to phase her. I think if she wanted, she could destroy him, or at least his mind, quite easily.

Dream follows rules. Delirium doesn't. I think she has no more reason to fear the Devil than she has to fear herself.

*also, DC/Sandman universe is /= Our Universe.
also-also, I know I contradicted myself. Is kinda the point.

*Spoiler warnings as per usual.*

Those are some interesting points, VegaRiad.

As for God being the most powerful deity in the mythos of Sandman and DC, Neil even writes with regards to the Silver City that it, "is not Paradise. It is not Heaven. It is the Silver City, that is not part of the order of created things." I believe this was in Seasons of Mist.

In other words, this Being -- often called The Presence or Yaweh may be a very powerful force, on par with the Universe that created the Endless, but is not necessarily God as we would understand it -- whether from an Abrahamic perspective or otherwise. At least, this is what Neil was trying to get across.

On this vein, I can see how this Presence is more of a, to borrow a phrase I read in White Wolf's Mage "a cosmological constant," and far beyond the scope of whether or not any sentient being believes in it. Just like the Endless, only they exist because sentient life does -- though whether or not sentients believe in them is quite irrelevant to their existences. Only gods, and demigods and others of that ilk depend on mortals -- for they are their dreams.

I do think that Lucifer, being created by The Presence for a particular purpose or function does have a great deal of power and I think a lot of that power comes from the fact that, as Dweller put it, very few know what his limits are. And he does not ever reveal the full extent of his power in terms of battle, at least not in Neil's Sandman.

You have to also consider how Lucifer's and Delirium's methods also function. Delirium was once Delight and she is representative of and has power over delusion and hallucination and can manipulate reality to that extent. Whereas Lucifer was once one of those in charge of creating that reality and perhaps certain functions of the Universe itself. He has a perspective that very few have.

Also, consider this. And forgive the spoilers that will occur. When Dream came to Hell armed as he was, Lucifer did not cause him pain through combat. Through very indirect and manipulative means, he made Dream take the key to Hell which in many ways freed him of further responsibility and his function, and left Dream with a lot of considerable pain with long reaching consequences.

So Delirium does have a clarity of truth and that kind of manipulation of perception, but Lucifer seems to see a very bigger picture and never comes at a problem through direct or obvious means. Through subversion. Also, he would see her coming a mile away. It's hard not too, especially if you are a being considerable age and power.

So who would win? I don't really know. I think Delirium could always remind the denizens of Hell of Delight and remind them of that which they will never have again, much as Dream reminded them of Hope. But with Lucifer, I'm not sure that would even work.

I do think however, that Lucifer would avoid a confrontation, and would use his considerable means to do so. And succeed. Or Delirium would not see the point and just get bored and go away. Whichever happens first.

quote:

Originally posted by Melancolía:
Dream himself says in Season of Mists that Lucifer is far more powerful than him. He's the most powerful being in the Universe after His Creator.

but that was because Dream was lacking a large portion of his power. he only had his sandbag; this is before his ruby was destroyed and his innate power returned to him, and he was there in the first place to regain his helm. plus, as Natalie says, Dream follows the rules, and Dream encountered Lucifer in Hell, in his seat of power, where he had backup, where he had legitimacy.

on an even playing field, the Endless, being removed from the limits of time and space, are more than a match for any created being, including Lucifer. and there's no indication that Delirium ever created something similar to Dream's ruby.

[and I also think, as Mythos says, that The Sandman differentiates between god(s)/goddess(es) and the Creator.]

Hmm. The thing is, Apathy, that by the time Dream is talking about Lucifer in Seasons of Mist, he has already destroyed his Ruby and taken back his sandbag and helmet.

In other words, he is already at his fullest power when he says that Lucifer is more powerful than he is. Of course, there are other things to consider as well -- such as, if you want to use a D&D analogy "background modifiers."

To fight Lucifer beyond Hell is one thing. For sure, Lucifer is very powerful but he is clearly not invincible and if Dream or Delirium dealt with him in another world, they might have had a chance, or if he encountered them in their realm their characteristics would be modified by + infinity. In other words, the Endless and cosmological constants like Lucifer depend on their own territory for their power.

And then back to the original argument -- Delirium is the youngest of the Endless, whereas Dream is the third born of the Universe. The Universe gave birth to the Endless. The Creator or Presence (who is interpreted by sentients, but otherwise does not depend on them) made Lucifer and the Angels (who themselves are not necessarily good or evil beings).

I suppose you have to ask yourself whether or not the Presence or the Universe is more powerful than the other. Or if they are the same, which I don't believe they are. But the Endless like Dream and Delirium were made to embody fundamental aspects of sentient existence, whereas Lucifer was made to construct Creation.

So really ... I think Lucifer has many advantages, especially in that he does not reveal all of his strength or capacities. It may not matter who was first or how they were created, but you have to consider: Endless and beings like Lucifer have their own realms, and their abilities to manipulate aspects of creation.

Also, they are bound by different rules from each other. Even Lucifer in his time though if his function was to be rebellious, he certainly fulfills his function even away from Hell. Especially so.

And with reference to Dream's Ruby, Delirium is all about a "lack of focus," whereas Dream's ruby was meant to be a focus for and a back-up for his power -- kind of like an automatic simplified command to summon his power as opposed to draining it out of himself directly. Or so I understand.

pretty sure Dream said that he put a lot of his power into the ruby. I am far, far too lazy to dig up the book right now, which is not excessively inconvenient, as we agree that Delirium wouldn't have had such a thing in any case.

I think Dream has more respect for other powers and, more significantly, their positions than Delirium does. Delirium doesn't defer to anyone whom she doesn't personally trust, but Dream does. so, despite the fact that she's probably not as powerful as Dream, I think she would be less likely to hold back and be civil for propriety's sake, which gives her an advantage.

and, as you say, the realm chosen is a huge factor, which is why I stipulated an even playing field—to truly gauge their innate abilities, a fair fight wouldn't take place in either of their realms. and, on an even playing field, I think Delirium would win, as her purview is a state of mind, not a physical condition (like Death or Destruction) or outside factor (like Destiny or Dream)...anyone can become subject to a state of mind.

Omg - I wrote a lengthy reply to this then minimised it a moment and it vanished - ok here goes again. Lucifer would destroy Delirium. In Preludes and Nocturnes and Season of Mists he is playing with Dream, toying with him - even though it backfires on him - but he is not stupid. He knows how far he can push things. he knows, perhaps better than any other being ever created, that actions have consequences. Would he destroy Delirium if she attacked him and bring the wrath of the Endless family down upon his head - no. Could he destroy Death, or Destiny? Would he be powerful enough to destroy Delirium? Yes, I reckon so. Could she actually harm him if he didn't allow that to happen - I very much doubt it. As far as the whole argument about how and where these entities draw their power - in extremis none of that is really true, and, deep down, they themselves know it. Morpheus is no more dependent upon his ruby than Lucifer is the demons in hell - these are their toys, dangerous and often traps contrived for and by themselves, but, if push came to shove, it would be time to put the toys away and get down to grown-up business, if that makes sense. I reckon only 1 being can destroy Lucifer - the one who created him - as far as Delirium driving him mad goes...erm, but he is mad - he rebelled against his Creator, picked a fight with the 1 being in all creation he coudln't possibly beat, and has been suffering for it ever since. Oh like the truly dangerous psychopath, he hides his psychosis very well, under a veneer of sophisticated charm and ennui, but Lucifer never left hell, not that easy, he has it in his heart, within him all the time, for hell for him is the knowledge that he can never return to what he once was - so what, really, could Delirium do to hurt him? He would probably laugh at her. As for the Mazikeen - she was far from one of the most powerful demons in hell, simply the only one who felt loyalty/love towards Lucifer - small potatoes, really, for one of the Endless, so the comparison between Lucifer's minion and himself doesn't really hold water - a bit like equating Morpheus with his raven Matthew.

Well, remember when she threatened Dream after he'd been an ass and dumped her on the side of the road in Brief Lives? And later the Furies implied that the mirrors in Morpheus' home kept his potential craziness in check, implying that maybe Delerium's threat wasn't hollow. Anything with a mind can go crazy. I think maybe Delerium's low boredom threshhold and distractability and such form a sort of a universal self-protection mechanism to stop her from making everyone and everything crazy (which would probably result in total chaos). She can't hold herself together long enough to, or to even really start seriously thinking about it.