First--howdy all, I'm new to the forums but I've been lurking here a while. My name's Juniper... Nice to meet you all. (=

-A fewe minor spoilers here if you haven't read Season of Mists or beyond-

Okay, so I was reading through Season of Mists yesterday, and ever since I first read it, I had been wondering if there was some connection between Shivering Jemmy and Delirium/Delight. I've never read any other DC comic that Jemmy appears in (shame on me), so maybe it would be clearer to me if I were more familiar with the character.

But here's my theory... I'm wondering if Jemmy is another incarnation of Delight. I wonder if, when Delight became Delirium, Jemmy appeared as a replacement for her, as Daniel appeared as a replacement for Morpheus. In representing chaos, it seems clear that there Jemmy has *some* connection to Del, but that connection may be limited to the fact that their domains cross on some level. However, it's interesting to me that she's a child (and a very perky one at that) and her appearance sort of resembles the few images we've seen of Delight...

Anybody else have some input on these ideas? I'd especially love to hear from someone who's more familiar with the Lords of Chaos and the Lords of Order.

Peace,
Juniper

I was never aware that Shivering Jemmy was an already existing DC character... As far as I knew, Neil created her just as he created the Box of Order.
(I could be wrong, though.)

In the Sandman Companion Neil says that he thought a wee girl wold be a good incarnation of chaos coz he had one at the time (Holly, I imagine) -or that when Holly had been little he thought she was quite chaotic. Something like that.

I think Jemmy kind of looks like Delirium coz she's younger, she's kind of random and, of course, the balloon. I don't think you'd get a "replacement" for an Endless -if one endless "dies", another aspect of it appears to go on fulfilling its function (Daniel, Despair). Delight mutated, didn't die (I tend to think there's still a tiny fraction of Delight trapped within Delirium) -which, now that I think about it, that would mean there's no more delight in the world...

That's interesting... Thanks for your response. A friend of mine had said that Jemmy was one of the Lords of Chaos, the quasi-pantheon that appears in other DC comics, and I thought my friend had said that Jemmy appeared in other comics, too. I could have misunderstood.

I assumed that Delight would have *had* to be replaced, unless the implication Gaiman is trying to make is that delight can no longer exist without delirium... Hm...

quote:

Originally posted by Juniper87:
That's interesting... Thanks for your response. A friend of mine had said that Jemmy was one of the Lords of Chaos, the quasi-pantheon that appears in other DC comics, and I thought my friend had said that Jemmy appeared in other comics, too. I could have misunderstood.

I assumed that Delight would have *had* to be replaced, unless the implication Gaiman is trying to make is that delight can no longer exist without delirium... Hm...

Jemmy was created after Neils Daughter, like cloverheart said. Neil says that he saw his daughter acting very much like any child whose had way to much icecream would and decided that was how the leader of Chaos would act.

I think you both have it right about delight still being inside delirium. You see her come out a tad bit in other sandman stories.

Whats important though is that all the endless have 2 aspects. Delight and Delirium, Destruction and Creation, Death and Life, Desire(lust) and Love, Despair and Love(this is the real reason Desire and Despair are twins I think), Destiny and Fear of change.

quote:

Originally posted by Juniper87:
That's interesting... Thanks for your response. A friend of mine had said that Jemmy was one of the Lords of Chaos, the quasi-pantheon that appears in other DC comics, and I thought my friend had said that Jemmy appeared in other comics, too. I could have misunderstood.

Hey, it could well be, I am in no way familiar with DC stuff in general. I read that, but maybe Jemmy already existed, and Neil just decided to give it another form.

I never saw Delight and Delirium as opposites, though, as Death and Life are. the way Neil elaborates the concept, I understand it as an evolution -something happened at the beginning ot humanity (I think this is hinted at in Brief Lives?) that made her change. We don't know, but I sometime simagine it as a sort of intoxication... The delight that humans felt at the beginning (I don't know, for so many new things, I suppose, the joy of discovering and experimenting and stuff) kind of grew too big and starte dintoxicating them, like a sip of wine might be delicious and really perk up your sense, but too much will make your head go to weir dplaces
Also, when he describes what she smells like in Seaosn of Mists, there's the idea there of something gone stale, or sour, like a fruit out of the fridge for way too long.

So I never thought of the two as opposites. I think the opposite of Delirium would be something like Lucidity. You get glimpses of it when she blurts out (in Seaosn of mists) that she knows stuff no one else knows, or when she tries to help Dream by putting herself together in Brief Lives -you know, that clarity you sometimes get even when you're in the middle of the worst brian tornado, that sudden glimpse of Truth.

quote:

Originally posted by Juniper87:
First--howdy all, I'm new to the forums but I've been lurking here a while. My name's Juniper... Nice to meet you all. (=

-A fewe minor spoilers here if you haven't read Season of Mists or beyond-

Okay, so I was reading through Season of Mists yesterday, and ever since I first read it, I had been wondering if there was some connection between Shivering Jemmy and Delirium/Delight. I've never read any other DC comic that Jemmy appears in (shame on me), so maybe it would be clearer to me if I were more familiar with the character.

But here's my theory... I'm wondering if Jemmy is another incarnation of Delight. I wonder if, when Delight became Delirium, Jemmy appeared as a replacement for her, as Daniel appeared as a replacement for Morpheus. In representing chaos, it seems clear that there Jemmy has *some* connection to Del, but that connection may be limited to the fact that their domains cross on some level. However, it's interesting to me that she's a child (and a very perky one at that) and her appearance sort of resembles the few images we've seen of Delight...

Anybody else have some input on these ideas? I'd especially love to hear from someone who's more familiar with the Lords of Chaos and the Lords of Order.

Peace,
Juniper

Hi Juniper -- told you, I just can't stay away. Sigh.

I know nothing about the Lords things, but I have the loverly and handy-dandy "Sandman Companion" right here and this is what it says:

HB [the author of the Companion]: Most of the pantheons you include are well established in history, but the representatives of Order and Chaos are something else again.

NG: Right, Order and Chaos are part of the DC Univerise theology -- and, I always assumed, inspired by the work of Michael Moorcock, who first came up with the concept of Order and Chaos gods.

It tickled me to represent Order as a cardboard box. And since I was the father of a six-year-old at the time -- my daughter Holly -- it didn't seem a stretch to incarnate Chaos as a small girl. Holly had just had her birthday, for which she put on a clown face and wore oversize clothing and wandered around with balloons, and I thought "There we go, that's what Shivering Jemmy will look like." As for her name, I nicked it from an old English dictionary of slang; it was a term for a type of beggar who stood and shivered at you.

quote:

Originally posted by Juniper87:
That's interesting... Thanks for your response. A friend of mine had said that Jemmy was one of the Lords of Chaos, the quasi-pantheon that appears in other DC comics, and I thought my friend had said that Jemmy appeared in other comics, too. I could have misunderstood.

Well, the Lords of Chaos are VERY chaotic, and I wouldn't doubt that someone's thought of a little girl as a Lord of Chaos since then. She also appeared briefly in Books of Magic as herself.

quote:

Originally posted by Dweller in Darkness:
She also appeared briefly in Books of Magic as
herself.

Did she? In Neil's miniseries on in the series after that?

It was issue 49 or 59, forget which, and, to be honest, I'm not sure when Neil left the series, so I can't be sure.

didnt he only do the first four issues?

Aye, 4-issue miniseries.
But I still got a few TPB, so I'll check them out some day.

quote:

Originally posted by Eldi:
Whats important though is that all the endless have 2 aspects. Delight and Delirium, Destruction and Creation, Death and Life, Desire(lust) and Love, Despair and Love(this is the real reason Desire and Despair are twins I think), Destiny and Fear of change.

While they do represent opposite aspects, I think you've got is somewhat skewed here. Death does define Life and Destruction does define Creation, but neither Desire nor Despair define Love and Love doesn't really seem to be opposite of either of those things. I believe the reason Desire and Despair are twins is because they lead into each other. To desire something means you lack it, which makes you despair. Conversely, to despair over something is to desire something else you perceive as better, therefore Desire and Despair are twins because they were born in human consciousness simultaneously.

Despair would be more fit to define Hope, as the nature of despair is the relinquishing of hope and wallowing in your own defeat. Desire, I would say, would moreso define Hate. For example, in Endless Nights the main character touches upon how hatred of someone very often springboards you into love and the desire to be with that person for some inexplicable reason. I see Desire being the counter to Hate, that while you want something more than you could ever bear you also hate it for doing that to you.

I'd say that Destiny doesn't define anything close to fear of change. In fact, I'd say he's the one most attuned to change as he sees it as inevitable. I would say he moreso defines Freedom.

This is something I've thought about in my own time separate from Sandman mythology. Fatalists and Determinists say we have a basically set path that we cannot escape, however there are those such as Existentialists who say that we have complete freedom of choice in the entirety of our existence (with the exception of that which we cannot control, i.e. we can't de-imagine walls).

From my own experience, I would say that, if there is a path laid out before you, it is still your choice whether or not to take it. I mean, I know a lot of slackers who do nothing with their lives but smoke pot and watch TV all day, and only work to support their habits and their living conditions. Was this always their destiny, or were they at one point in time supposed to be the doctors who cured cancer? I find it hard to believe it would be anybody's predestined future to be a loser.

Unless there's some higher power ordering our thoughts, it seems to me that it would be pretty hard to completely eliminate choice. Therefore, Destiny defines Freedom because, while you have a set start and a set end, there are millions of paths to how you get there and you have the ability to choose them.

In Sandman, this is evidenced by Delirium's comment about how futures are all "so wiggly" or something (I think in Brief Lives but I'm not sure). Similarly, when things start going crazy in The Kindly Ones, Destiny starts seeing multiples of himself and even splits into two differing opinions on what Delirium should do about finding Barnabas, showing the different paths and outcomes of the story.

Wow, talk about a long rant...I definitely didn't mean for that to happen! Heh, I guess there is a destiny after all.

Hi, I just noticed that Dream and what he defines are n't mentioned here. I think I once read that Dream defined reality, but I have been thinking that it might be better to say that Dream defines waking. Especially given what happens with the Sleeping sickness while he is imprisoned, people are unable to wake up as well as unable to dream properly. Also there's the fun Neil has at the end playing with the word wake...
*****