Great Scot! Here I thought I was done with this argument! Daniel says in The Wake that he is only permitted to take human life when doing so is necessary to prevent the destruction of the Dreaming, but that he may punish as he sees fit. Morpheus could have killed John Dee because Dee was tearing the dreaming apart, but was unable to do so. Then, when the ruby was broken and Morph regained his powers, Dee asked, "are you going to hurt me?" Or something like that, to which Dream responded, "I could. Perhaps I will. But...etc.,etc." So, yes, he could have killed Dee, but didn't deem it to be necessary. And a human doesn't have to be a vortex for Dream to kill them, only has to threaten the existence of the dreaming.

Relax, you fiends! I'm only joking.

I'm new at this stuff so I hope my message will be posted!!

I think one of the problem here it's that Neil or Mr Gaiman (neither or them sounds right to me) created the Orpheus character out of an alredy existing myth. This is a site were I found the story summarized:http://www.loggia.com/myth/eurydice.html
They say Orpheus was a semi-god (son of Calliope and Apollo). I seem to remember the story a little differently he was just human whose poems and songs were soo marvelous that the gods granted him the possibility to retrive his wife from the underworld, not that there was ever any chance for him to succed.

Anyway my point it's that human of semi-god Orpheus is also a myth and in this sense he also is immortal and similar to gods. And I guess in this spirit Neil reinterpreted the greek myth and made him son of Morpheus, and in this sense just the lord of dreams (and myth too since after all they are just collective dreams) would be able to take his life away.
It just made perfectly sense, but I think in this instance it make no sense trying to explain every tiny bit.
Those are old stories that have been told many times, never in the same way and so they don't always make complete sense but their sense it's always true and that's what matters!

I think the same can be said of sanman's stories too, since it's an attempt to create a modern myth. In my recollection Morpheus never kills any mortals and so the rules that it can take mortal life just if it's a vortex still holds. Lyta Hall and John Dee have been just threten to death. Moreover in my mind they are are not exactely humans, after all they were born in comics, and like myths there essence it's dream, something morpheus should be able to do and undo at his will. I know that would means they are comic in a comic, so.. it makes perfectly sense to me!!

well that just my opinion anyway

SE

I'm always chastised for saying things like this and should probably learn not to because it is kind of rude, but would someone please try to explain to me what that last post was trying to get at? I find no fault in the poster; perhaps English isn't his/her first language, or he/she was in a hurry, but I would very much like to know exactly what he/she was trying to say.

Relax, you fiends! I'm only joking.

mmmmmmh

Yes, English it's not my first language but I used to think I could explain my-self anyway in it, ;p! Well I have to admit I made a lot of grammar error that I didn't see in the first place. May-be I have been a little too hasty in writing. Let's see if I can remedy this awful mess or otherwise I'll disappear from the thread ashamed and misunderstood. In order to do so I’m afraid I’ll have to reveal some particular of the story that can really spoil the pleasure of reading sandman so if you haven’t read all of it please don’t read further.

One of the questions the thread was asking (it's not the first one but it's easier to answer this one first) is: Is Orpheus god or human? Because if he was human Morpheus wouldn’t be allowed to take he’s life and therefore there would be a big contradiction in the Sandman’s story.
Now I had many things to say about it and probably I mixed and confuse them up, let’s try to put some order:
1) He’s son of an Endless and a muse so in my opinion: no he can’t be either human or mortal. Beside if he was human he would have died after the bacchae (I hope the spelling is right) tore his body apart.
2) The only thing (I thought when I was writing the post) that could support Orpheus’ mortality, it’s the fact that in the Greek legend he’s a human, and Neil Gaiman, except for very few changes, have been very close to the original myth. But I was actually wrong in recalling the legend: he’s the son of Apollus, instead of morpheus, so he is a semi-god in the legend too. It’s only his wife who’s human and mortal actually.
3) And then I thought oh well there’s so many versions of this legend that probably in one he actually was human.
4) And so I finally realize that if Orpheus is human or not human inside the legend doesn’t matter at all. Because Orpheus is a legend in it-self and therefore he’s not human, he’s made of dreams like any other mythical figure that Neil Gaiman placed in Sandman.


That explained my thoughts on the second question follow consequently: Isn’t Sandman in killing (or better trying to kill) Lyta Hall and John Dee bending the rule that prevents him from killing humans unless they are vortex?
1) Well first of all he never actually kill them, he just threaten them. He may as well just be bluffing, which I think would be perfectly possible and logical.
2) Second of all even if he had actually killed them would it be violation of the rule? Well yes if they are human, but are they human? Although my comic knowledge is not very vast I think I read that Neil Gaiman ‘borrowed’ them from other comics. And indeed Lyta is the wife of a comic character and John Dee is introduced as well in a scenario taken from comics, the Arkam Asylum. So they are fictional creations, that humans created and other humans actually dream of. So they are dreams as well, may-be almost forgotten but still dreams. It follows that Sandman is fully entitle to kill them, if he wants to, or better if humans allow. Now this opens the question: are comics as we know them fictional creation in the sandman's comic arch as well or are they 'real'? Does it really matters?

You see the beauty of Sandman, it’s not just that only tiny bit fit with each other in the story arch and that you can logically explain everything within it, but also that there’s different layers in the story. you can give different interpretations of it and they are all equally valid. Human or not, Orpheus is a character of a story were Dream is the main character. Orpheus is his son, and he’s killed by him, for this reason a rule is broken. But Orpheus is also part of the story as a dream in it-self, product of human collective subconscious, and can’t really die unless humans forget him. So who created and un-created Orpheus: Morpheus or humans? Well does it really matter? Isn’t it the same in the end? The story, although in an apparent contradiction (or probably because of it), still preserve he’s beauty and its coherence.
I’m not sure that trying to fit all the little pieces together helps to make more sense out of it. It’s like when you look at a Van Gogh’s painting and you go very close trying to fix on every single little stroke of the brush and they look so randomly disposed that it seems impossible they could create such a marvelous whole!! It can drive you really crazy, if you ask me, and I’m not sure it does always help appreciate and enjoy the art.
But probably I shouldn’t say that to comic-fan, that’s one of reason why this whole board it’s fun.

I hope the aid of the Italian vocabulary and world processor helped my written English to be more understandable, this time (Usually when I speak I don’t need them, I can assure you).
I want also to point out that this is just my opinion and my thoughts on this matter. I’m not willing to change other people mind, or to prevent you guys from playing the wonderful game that is to take a story apart explain all the pieces. I just wanted to introduce a different voice (mine) and a different point of view and also basically try to challenge my-self and other to read the Sandman story in a different way.

Well I think now I wrote way too much hope I didn’t bore you guys

Ciao

Serena

quote:

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Originally posted by Se:
mmmmmmh

Yes, English it's not my first language but I used to think I could explain my-self anyway in it, ;p! Well I have to admit I made a lot of grammar error that I didn't see in the first place. May-be I have been a little too hasty in writing. Let's see if I can remedy this awful mess or otherwise I'll disappear from the thread ashamed and misunderstood. In order to do so I’m afraid I’ll have to reveal some particular of the story that can really spoil the pleasure of reading sandman so if you haven’t read all of it please don’t read further.

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Nah, it's OK. you're not the only one whose first language is other than English.

And welcome.

quote:

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One of the questions the thread was asking (it's not the first one but it's easier to answer this one first) is: Is Orpheus god or human? Because if he was human Morpheus wouldn’t be allowed to take he’s life and therefore there would be a big contradiction in the Sandman’s story.
Now I had many things to say about it and probably I mixed and confuse them up, let’s try to put some order:

---

OK, let's see.

quote:

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1) He’s son of an Endless and a muse so in my opinion: no he can’t be either human or mortal. Beside if he was human he would have died after the bacchae (I hope the spelling is right) tore his body apart.

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As I've said before, I believe Orpheus is not human, but he's definitely mortal. The reason he didn't die when the Bacchae tore his body apart is that Death did not call him, in order to allow him to reach the Underworld when he went for Eurydice.

quote:

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2) The only thing (I thought when I was writing the post) that could support Orpheus’ mortality, it’s the fact that in the Greek legend he’s a human, and Neil Gaiman, except for very few changes, have been very close to the original myth. But I was actually wrong in recalling the legend: he’s the son of Apollus, instead of morpheus, so he is a semi-god in the legend too. It’s only his wife who’s human and mortal actually.

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Since Morpheus is the Lord of Stories and one of his ravens was Aristheus of Marmora (sp?) --whom I recall was turned into a raven by Apollo, according to the myth-- I can safely state that Apollo and Morpheus are the same entity (at least in The Sandman)

quote:

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3) And then I thought oh well there’s so many versions of this legend that probably in one he actually was human.

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Could be.

quote:

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4) And so I finally realize that if Orpheus is human or not human inside the legend doesn’t matter at all. Because Orpheus is a legend in it-self and therefore he’s not human, he’s made of dreams like any other mythical figure that Neil Gaiman placed in Sandman.

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Can't human be legendary? A legendary human is still human, no matter what others believe of him.

And even dreams may die...

quote:

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That explained my thoughts on the second question follow consequently: Isn’t Sandman in killing (or better trying to kill) Lyta Hall and John Dee bending the rule that prevents him from killing humans unless they are vortex?
1) Well first of all he never actually kill them, he just threaten them. He may as well just be bluffing, which I think would be perfectly possible and logical.
2) Second of all even if he had actually killed them would it be violation of the rule? Well yes if they are human, but are they human? Although my comic knowledge is not very vast I think I read that Neil Gaiman ‘borrowed’ them from other comics. And indeed Lyta is the wife of a comic character and John Dee is introduced as well in a scenario taken from comics, the Arkam Asylum. So they are fictional creations, that humans created and other humans actually dream of.

---

They're fictional characters in the real world. In The Sandman they're as real as anyone else.

John Dee was a mad scientist, a villain. Lyta Hall was a superhero -- Hypolita.

quote:

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So they are dreams as well, may-be almost forgotten but still dreams. It follows that Sandman is fully entitle to kill them, if he wants to, or better if humans allow.

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Do dreams dream? Because living creatures do. Are human mere dreams? And if they were, why is there a distinction between awake dreams (human) and the dreamed ones?

quote:

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Now this opens the question: are comics as we know them fictional creation in the sandman's comic arch as well or are they 'real'? Does it really matters?

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They are. It does matter. Every reality is real on itself.

I'll get back on the rest of your post later.


Thanks to Life that has given me so much
it gave me laughter and crying
thus I tell joy from sorrow
the two materials that shape my song

Gracias a la vida, Violeta Parra

Exactly what I was looking for, Se. Thank you.

Now, the one thing I thought you were wrong about (that I remember, I'm not made of time, you know. I wasn't expecting a sodding NOVEL. Sorry I'm so grumpy) is that Dream would have been breaking rules had he killed Dee or Lyta Hall. Although he didn't threaten to kill Lyta, he threatened to "punish" her, which would probably be closer to what he did to Alex Burgess than to actually killing her. He would have been well within his boundaries if he had killed Dee, as Dee had screwed with the dreaming in the past, and still possessed the knowledge, if not necessarily the tools, to screw with it again. Thus taking his life would protect the Dreaming. Also, I've lost my copy of Preludes and Nocturnes, but I'm not sure if he threatens Dee with death or just "punishment, " which would make the whole point moot.

Relax, you fiends! I'm only joking.

The way that I interpreted it is that Morpheus can kill anyone who threatens the Dreaming in any way (for example, John Dee, Lyta Hall, Rose Walker and any other vortexes). But this rule is one that he created himself, "a very long time ago. It's part of his nature, making rules, " as Eve says to Matthew in a Parliment of Rooks. But he doesn't have to follow this rule, like when he killed Orpheus. Besides, he justifies this to himself by saying to Delerium "No. He died long ago, when the Sisters of the Frenzy tore his body to shreds, and threw his head into the Hebrus." I believe that Morpheus could have broken his rule and killed Lyta Hall, if he had really wanted to, and likewise that he didn't have to go to Nuala when she called him, despite his promise.

By the way, I have been lurking occassionally for a while, but this is my first post.

Welcome. Wilkommen. Bienvenuti. Benvenidos. Elcomeway. Especially since yours is exactly the opinion I have been clumsily trying to express. Punishing Lyta would have been breaking one of his rules. Killing her in The Kindly Ones would not, as her rage was tearing the dreaming literally to scorpion-nibbled threads.

Relax, you fiends! I'm only joking.

empowered: To invest with power, especially legal Power or official authority.

He was capable of killing any human he wanted, but it was against the rules, ie he was not empowered to, so didn't kill.