I like Endless Nights, but with all things new I start to realize the flaws or things I dislike after a while. While talking with several friends of mine who have read it we realized that while it was really good it wasn't the best thing we've read. At this point one could say that we're just suffering from setting our expectations too high. That possibly could be the case but I think that's not really the answer. I think the main flaw of Endless Nights is the fact that we don't quite know all of the Endless that well. It was sort of hard to enjoy some of the stories when you didn't really know more of the Endless' backstories (just brief cameos or how they seem from Dream's POV). Here's a rundown of what the general consensus on each story was:

Death- This was an enjoyable story. This is also possibly due to the fact that there has also been two other Death stories out before this so we sort of knew what to expect.

Desire- This was also a story that was enjoyed greatly. It had Desire, but it wasn't portrayed in an evil light.

Dream- Hands down the best in the collection. It was like visiting an old friend again. Not only was the idea of the meeting at the beginning of time good, but the little things made it shine. How could you not like seeing Delight and the first Despair or how the family interacted with each other originally before becoming dysfunctional?

Despair- Creepy. Only thing that could be said. Not really a story at all and not one that people would really reread, but that's not a flaw since it's creepy and makes it's point.

Delerium- This seemed to be the main disappointment. I think a lot of people were hoping to learn a lot more about Delerium (or Delight for that matter). Personally I think Delerium is probably the easiest of the Endless to write about. I mean take something simple (girl needs rescuing) and throw in a bunch words that don't really go together as what the characters say, and add in a few characters that you recognize (Daniel/Dream, Barnabus) and you got Delerium's story. Either Delerium is really easy to write about or Neil is so good that he gives the illusion that it's easy. Either way, the biggest disappointment out of the series.

Destruction- Good. I personally would have preferred Fabry to have painted it since the art looks the most "comic-like" out of the stories. The story itself was sort of intriguing and seemed to somewhat flesh out Delerium's story. In the end though it seemed to provide more questions than answers.

Destiny- Really just a closing, but a good one. I think Destiny may be the hardest of the Endless to write about since he just spends his time reading his book and walking around his garden. Describing what is in his book was a really great idea though and I think it would be hard to make a Destiny story that could top that.

So did anyone have any criticisms of the book or things that just got on their nerves?

I also had some criticisms. I enjoyed the Dream, Despair, Death and Desire stories, in that order. The final page of the Dream story where you realize it's Sol telling the story to Earth was my favorite moment in the book.

I liked meeting Delight, and I guess she worked for me in the context of the Dream story, but I was expecting a feeling of bliss in the presence of Delight, and I didn't get that.

The Despair thing worked for me, not just because I found some of the portraits really moving, but I liked the idea of despair as a portrait. In writing class, they tell you that stories should be like dances or songs (moving forward) not like portraits (static), but I liked it here, because I got from it that when you feel despair, you are static.

The Destiny story was for me the biggest disappointment. It was like a longer version of the description at the beginning of Season of Mists. I don't think it should be that hard to tell a story about Destiny. He has a personality. He makes choices (like when he asks whatshername in the Dream story if she loves Dream...that doesn't seem like predestination. That's something else.) He has feelings about his job, like in Books of Magic when he confesses he is relieved to lay his book down. It was interesting looking at the book, but I wanted to know more about him.

The Destruction story also disappointed me. I find him a really interesting guy, but this tale wasn't about him, and seemed only about the concept of destruction in a passing sense.

I need to go back and re-read the Delirium story. I liked the premise of it, but was a little confused by what exactly what going on.

[This message was edited by Peeping Uatu on September 24, 2003 at 11:53 AM.]

this is mostly my scattered thots and impressions and reactions to what you all have written, i don't have the book right in front of me.

i loved the artwork in desire and in despair. i liked the story telling mehtod of desire's story.
death and dream's were also great stories. from the little we saw, the first despair in dream's story seems a very interesting character. i was a bit confused as to why delight was quasi-deleriumish, and then it said it was quite a long time before she began to change?

i liked deleriums story, but it was soo short and explained so little... how/why was she hurting? why did she need people who belonged to her to rescue her? why was the catatonic girl 'cured' after she came out of del's realm? why was dream the one helping barnabas? why did they ask destruction to take care of her?

i didn't really like destruction's story at all... the art was, as pointed out by others, the most normal-comic-ish, and the story didn't seem to really be about destruction either... and delerium always says important things that i never understand...
i think i have to re-read it, but i also don't get why the woman had dreams of decay and things...

and yes, destiny's story was beautifully illustrated, but still the same old story...
"i'm destiny. i have a great big burden of a book, i know everything. walk walk walk, read read read."

one more question- is there a specific reason for the mask theme with the in between stuff dave mckean did?

and lastly, i've been wondering why isn't there a seprate forum thing for endless nights? it's all shiny and new, new things get their own forums don't they?

mmmmm.. criticism.. mmmmm

I do have things that I didn't like at first but than turn out loving and some that I still don't like, but at the same time I've to say that I loved any tiny bit of it.

But let's see:

First of all I had no problem with the sory not reveling so much about characters. I feel that endless nights it's like nouvel cousin amazing: palatal sensations but not too much too fill your stomac. and although I'd love some day to have a big dinner of endless that will leave me filled-up and satisfied, I didn't mind to get to taste all those amazing flavors in once, even if it didn't come with so much substance and some times left with even more apetite (like the delirium story). But I guess that what endless nights was supposed to be since the biggining a complete set of wonderfull crafted oervs d'ovres that open up your stomac and left you drawling for more!!! i just hope Neil Gaiman set-up him-self to write some more endless stories in the next lets say few years otherwise I'll be really hungry (and a bit angry too)

Death-liked a lot, the art and the story, still it's not the one that grab me completely and let me hung there asking for more. But I have to say every time I read it again it turns out better.

Desire-Never been a Manara fan (dont ask me way, I'm even italian) but here he does a great job, expetially in picturing desire, I was amazed, I think he's the one artist who characterized him-her the best. The story, I don't know I feel like I've missed something of it because everyone loves it but I can't feel it that much. I mean it's not like I never desired and I can relate to the main character also, but at the same time I haven't yet felt that story 'real'. But I also had the greatest expectations on it because I read so much about. There was this article in which Gaiman said the last page of Desire story was he's middle finger raised against who ever said that you can do by simple prose whatever comics can do by image and text. May-be i'm blind but I still can't see it, may-be one day I'll woke-up pick-up the book and I'll 'see it' and I'll feel this story too.

Dream- My favorite. There's not yet any tiny bit of it that I don't immensely liked. the amazment of dicovering who mizar, stoa, oa and sol were or who the story-teller was and who was he telling it too. EVERYTHING, I'll say no more.

Despair-I didn't like despair stories, too depressing, too sad, couldn't feel them. And then at the NY is a book country I got to here those stories read directely by the man him-self and... I almost cryed and felt amazingly sad and touched, now i love all of them. And everytime I read them I can hear Neil Gaiman story inside my head, priceless.

Delirium-I agree it leaves you with more question then answers, about a character about which we all would like to know more expetially about the Delight-Delirium change. And here instead to have the first change explained she undergoes an other one ARGHHHHHH. I just hope Neil whant leave us without answers, I think sooner or later it's going to give us some explaination, he's just preparing the field. None the less I liked it. At the NY is a book country talk Gaiman explained that part of its incomprensibility it's due to Bill Sienkiewicz, whose tables weren't exactely what Neil wrote in the script and so he had to rewrite it to make it fit the art, it's kind of strange but I think it's the best fit for a Del story!!

Destruction-it's the one story that I honestly didn't like that much, even after reading it a second time. I still don't know what is it about!! But Neil borrowed the original idea from an other writer so may-be he didn't felt it that much either, I don't know. I don't think it's that great and the art, didn't like that that much either, it's OK but not at the same level than the rest.

Destiny-yes there's not too much of a story and I think it wasn't meant too. It was just a sort of canvas set there to allow one of the greatest artist in comic history to do his best. Unfortunatelly that artist at a certain point just happend to pull out and Fabbry was asked to took over that canvas. gosh did he filled it wright!! It leaves me speachless everytime I see it, and as you can see it's not very easy to leave me without worlds !!

Well that's it!!

Yes, Yes, Yes let's have an intire poster for endless nights!! Hey GMZoe, can we?

Ciao

SE

Oooh.. I almost forgot to tell you about the masks. Again Neil said it at the Ny is a book country talk. I know it must be awful hear me saying Neil said this Neil said that, I'm just trying to share alright? I was hoping they might post the interview in the journal or in the dreaming site but there's no sign of it yet, so you'll have to hear it from me).
Anyway the masks are a reference partially to the first story, death and venice, and partially to a low budget movie that Neil wrote and McKean is directing-animating and that it's called mirror mask. should be released next year if I remember well. If you want to know more about it you should do a search in the journal, I think Neil Gaiman writes something about it every once in a while when there's something new. And to finish up about the masks: McKean, when he was doing the research for the movie, has been in Venice and meet with one of the best artisan that crafts them, he felt in love with them and bought a bunch. some of those mask are the one that appear in the book.

That's all I know, I hope it helps

SE

I glanced through it at a bookstore but didn't have the money to buy it. The first page of Despair is all I had time to read.

Back when I first wrote him letters I lived in a trailer, on disability, have a bum leg, and there were 20 not 70 cats where I was living. I don't live there anymore. I look a lot like despair. I lost the place in a court battle with my mom who was trying to sue me, lost a baby and spilled my heart out to Neil in many letters. Now the cats have taken over the place and two men care take the cats.

I don't know how I feel about "Endless Nights" right now. I will have to read it all the way through, but I am disturbed by the first page I read of Despair.

This is what I look like.







Peace

quote:

---

Originally posted by Se:
Yes, Yes, Yes let's have an intire poster for endless nights!! Hey GMZoe, can we?

---

a poster? Like a hang on the wall poster? They already made one with art by Quietly. (And I have zero influence over what should be made btw)

And don't worry about saying 'neil said this and that'. For more info on Mirrormask, one can also do a search on the message board where people have compiled what they've heard him say in person, just like what you're doing

( Dragon's Bard? Here, have a big [hug] ! - Cho )

ooooops

I'm sorry I still make confusion with this board related names, I was meaning a forum in response to the proposal of the person who posted before me. I thought if thees are posts then a sum of posts should be a poster, I don't know why I thought that!! So this is a forum on Gaiman's other works, lets have a specific one on endless nights. Yes, yes, yes!! I mean the coraline board is getting a little thin and there's so many thread here on endless nights!!

I'm glad my reports of 'what Neil said at the NY is a book country talk' were weren't annoing and you actually enjoyed them!!

Ciao

SE

ahhh... One who posts is a poster. An area for threads is a forum...
I don't think Endless Nights, a group of 7 short stories, is enough to support an entire forum. A major new novel seems to be able to. (wellll, Coraline is a novella, not a novel). Even if Coraline is thin now, note it received more threads in the first week of publication than Endless Nights has

I kind of liked the Delirium story. I agree it was confusing (rightfully so), but I was pleased that Gaiman wrote Daniel in. Like I was w/the first Dream's relationship w/Delirium, I was eager to see more of Daniel interacting w/her. They're like both youngest kids on the block now. Some more of that would have been nice.

ohhhh

So I'm a poster, that's wierd!! This new furum vocabulary really amazes me!!

Oh no forum for endless nights , oh well I'll keep filling and messing this forum then!

Speaking about posters, does anyone knows were I can find the Quitely's poster with all the endless, I really loved it



Wait a second but in my previuos post I wrote that Fabbry draw Destiny story not Quitely NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Sorry guys for the misteake, I didn' get too much sleep recently and my brain it's not working properly. I also spotted a lot of spelling misteake, sorry again, without the grammar corrector of office I'm kind of lost!! May-be I should think a little longer before to post!!

The poster is available at neilgaiman.net

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chomiji:
( Dragon's Bard? Here, have a big [hug] ! - Cho )

---

Thanks that was sweet.

I asked Neil about it and this was his reply.

quote:

---

"Er, yes, you're being silly. The cat story -- disability, trailer and all,
was the only thing I took from a local news story about a year ago about how
the local sherrifs office had to clear out a trailer filled with (mostly)
dead cats. I found it haunting, and sad, and wondered what it must have been
like to be this man in that situation.

Would you like to see a copy of the article? I'm sure it's still online
somewhere.

best

Neil"

---

I apologized to him. Oh what a silly goose am I.




Peace

Yea... i didn't like Destruction's, either... it didn't seem to make much sense... it just... ended. The art was nice (Fabry's cool), but it didn't go anywhere... the premise was intrigue, but what did it have to do with Destruction? Was there any point at all?

I did love the Slashdot reference, but that was pretty much it.

Oh, and BTW: Who is Mizer, from the Dream story? I know Sto-oa became Oa, and Rao is Krypton's sun (Byrne had Supes say "Great Rao" sometiems), and Sol is Earth... but i don't know Mizer.

Excelsior!

~~~~~~~~~
Disclaimer: This sig is intended for amusment and/or enlightenment. It is not intended to make any statement, implied or not, on gender roles and/or the state of women in society. If this offends you still, then either write me or flame warren ellis directly. Thank you. This will be removed when i think of a new sig


You can either be part of the problem or part of the solution, but in the end, being part of the problem is much more fun.

"I'm living in my car now. My car loves me. I mean, it wouldn't have grown a real vagina for me otherwise, would it?" -- Warren Ellis

"To fall in love is to create a religion with a fallible God"-- Jorge Luis Borges

http://lon.blogspot.com Its a slightly less eloquent me

Mizar is a real-world star--actually, a double star, and one of the stars in it is also a double star.See Matthew Peckham's annotations--http://www.mattpeckham.com/annotations/sandman.
endless.nights.special.

I think the Destruction story is a good bookend for the Death story (I think of the Destiny piece as just an epilouge.) Like "Death and Venice," "On the Peninsula" seems to be about running away from time and endings while also being fascinated by them, or in love with them. I agree that the destruction story seems unfinished, but that's sort of appropriate to its theme of impending destruction. Also, I think dangling mysteries and keeping us wondering is a huge part of Gaiman's narrative method. I wonder if the upcoming Books of Magic revival is going to pick up some of the apocalyptic threads from this book.

Hehehe... "apcolyptic threads"? This is the DCU-- there's an apcolpyse every summer, or whenever sales slump... plus a multidimesional apcolpyse every 10 years or so.

Seriously, i need to reread the story more carefully... hrm... would have been neat if he'd actually arranged to have something posted on Slashdot that was part of the story... turning it into one big puzzle/game.

But that's not really Neil's style, so i'll just reread it. And thanks for the info on Mizer... i'll check the annotations to see if it has further significance

Excelsior!

~~~~~~~~~

You can either be part of the problem or part of the solution, but in the end, being part of the problem is much more fun.

"I'm living in my car now. My car loves me. I mean, it wouldn't have grown a real vagina for me otherwise, would it?" -- Warren Ellis

"To fall in love is to create a religion with a fallible God"-- Jorge Luis Borges

http://lon.blogspot.com Its a slightly less eloquent me

Thanks for the annotated link... i especially liked this bit (even though i'm not a huge Superman fan):

quote:

---

Brian O'Sullivan adds:

Superman represents hope, which arguably can only be manifest as the negation of despair. I think it's poetic to imagine that Superman resulted from Despair's failed "work of art." The failure sort of fulfulls her function.

Pursant to Brian's comments, reference The Sandman: Brief Lives, chapter 8, page 16, where Destruction is describing the functions of the Endless to Dream and Delirium, specifically panel 5 where he says:

Our sister defines life, just as Despair defines hope, or Desire defines hatred, or Destiny defines freedom

---

Excelsior!

~~~~~~~~~

You can either be part of the problem or part of the solution, but in the end, being part of the problem is much more fun.

"I'm living in my car now. My car loves me. I mean, it wouldn't have grown a real vagina for me otherwise, would it?" -- Warren Ellis

"To fall in love is to create a religion with a fallible God"-- Jorge Luis Borges

http://lon.blogspot.com Its a slightly less eloquent me

Sup, gentlemen. Ladies. LTNS as we used to say. Sew Endless Nights: Are all the stories about people falling in love with Endless, or Endless w/them? A great good deal if I recall. Anyway; I am down w/Despair & Delerium cheifly artwise. Destiny and Desire: also pretty. I am not down w/the cheezy Dream story. & I am no fan of P. Craig Russell. I do wish poor ol' Destiny would get more to do, for my sentimental streak is such that I think he's the saddest. And speaking of sentiment, I am glad to see (in the Destruction) that as I suspected "The Sandman" is a happy story about a family that gets back to being friends again after fighting a long time.

'nyhoo, it's been a bit of fun to skirt this dangerous territory yet again. Once a year is about the right schedule I daresay. Hope y'all are well, in general & particulars. G'nite then.; Taxi

"cheezy Dream story" "no fan of P Craig Russel"

*sigh*

Ah well... not going to argue, nor try to change your mind... just going to disagree respectfully.


Hehehe! Just realized it'd be funny to have the Parliment discuss Lobo's planet: "It would be nice to have a planet that gets destroyed by one of its own. No good reason, really. Just for the fun of it"

Excelsior!

~~~~~~~~~

One day we will die and our ashes will fly from the aeroplane over the sea
Until then we are young let us lay in the sun and count every beautiful thing we can see-- Neutral Milk Hotel

http://lon.blogspot.com Its a slightly less eloquent me