I mentioend this in a previous post; but it interests me more now as I ahdn't actually read Season of Mists at that stage.

It's interesting how no Greek Gods turn up. In fact, the only greek God to ever be mentioned is Gaia (Midsummer Night's Dream) and that could just be that the Faerie folk name the planet after her (although if you ask me Faerie is a lot more naturey than Earth).

Also, Morpheus has a different name when dealing with Calliope, Onerios I belive.

Yet he has a son called Orpheus; but that would also make him Apollo, as Orpheus was the son of Calliope and Apollo; but I'd say this is rather a play on the nature of stories; just because we on some level "create" aspects of Gods by believing in them, doesn't mean we're always right.

The Endless are not Gods; but is Dream? Can you be a God and an Endless?

It sonds stupid, but think about it: Gods start off as dreams.

If you think about it logically, someone had to want to Dream before Dream could exist, so was Dream not technically "dreamed" up? And he was worshipped as a god, under the name Morpheus.

It's interesting to know he's the only one of the Endless people really have Myths about; except for perhaps Death, but she's never female.

So, is there no such thing as the God Morpheus in the Sandman universe; or are they the same or seperate entities?

Was Neil trying to draw attention to this with the absence of the Greek Gods in the Season of Mists? Is it one of those mysteries intended to be left open?

Is there anyone here more experienced in such mythology and Sandman matters?

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Originally posted by Wetflame:
It's interesting to know he's the only one of the Endless people really have Myths about; except for perhaps Death, but she's never female.

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"Death" is a feminine word in Romance languages, and so it is considered female in those cultures (for example, over here they turned Discworld's Death into female when they translated the books).

Death and Destiny both have myths and figures that represent them in the Greek-Latin pantheon.

I think the Endless are worshipped in different cultures in different ways -some for what they are, but sometimes as something different. I think the whole Morpheus/Apollo/Orpheus/Death/Oneiros part basically represents how over time a figure of worship (Dream) mutates and the myths created aorund it change and get confused. There are lots of different versions of the Orpheus myth, for example. Which one is true?
Morpheus was a Greek deity, son of Hipno (="dream"), who was in turn son of the Night and a twin of Tanato (="death"). "Oneiros" were actually a bunch od reams, children of the Night as well.

Hmmm...I never thought of myself as a god before...

Oh! What? Oh, yeah. The character.

Well. Throughout the series its pointed out several times that the Endless are not gods. I can't find it now (due to time restraints), but I do think I remember somewhere either in the series or in an interview with Neil where it is stated that Morpheus and Apollo got mixed up quite often. This implies that Apollo and Morpheus both exist.

As to Seasons of Mists...there could have been Greek gods and goddesses that were there and not featured prominently (there were several dieties in the background of panels).

(I thought that in the first movie and that bit in Reloaded where he sliced the van with the samurai sword, but he got so annoying in Revolutions I just forgot about it. I guess if Neo's Jesus it would make him Neo's dad, which would make the whole thing even stupider)

The comic... right...

Weeeellll... Lyta Hall does show up and, IIRC, she's the daughter of Wonder Woman, who got her powers through the Greek Gods... so the stuff is in the background. What Clover said is also correct.
*tries to remember if Captain Marvel and his SHAZAM, based on several Greek gods, has showed up in any Neil work*

In some of the issues Morpheus appears to people as a god, like in Preludes and Nocturnes when he appeared as the giant flaming head to John.

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Well. Throughout the series its pointed out several times that the Endless are not gods.

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The *endless* aren't Gods, as a group. It's like saying humans aren't geniuses, there are always exceptions. I was pointing out that Morpheus, because of his nature, is the most God-*like*. While he is not a God, under normal terms, he could certainly act as one if he so wished.

The Endless rely on humans, like Gods, they just don't need them to believe in them; that'd only be more work =P

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I can't find it now (due to time restraints), but I do think I remember somewhere either in the series or in an interview with Neil where it is stated that Morpheus and Apollo got mixed up quite often. This implies that Apollo and Morpheus both exist.

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But is Morpheus the Morpheus from legend? From Pagan friends I've heard that Morpheus was more of a concept than a God, there were quite a few like that in Greek Mythology; which would in fact make him something very similiar to the endless.

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As to Seasons of Mists...there could have been Greek gods and goddesses that were there and not featured prominently (there were several dieties in the background of panels).

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It was said explicity that none of the Greek Gods where there, for unknown political reasons.

I don't suppose Neil ever comes here, under a bout of frustration at the annoying and pointless theories people come up with over his work?

I don't think Morpheus can act as a god... but we humans probably are more able to perceive him as one than as for what he really is. I think that's the "explanation" behind the myths about Morpheus/Oneiros/APollo/Teleute... The myths (especially the Greek ones, which you address specifically) are not something that is "fixed". The info I posted about the Greek dream gods, is only one of the so-considered "official" versions. The Greek civilizations lasted thousands of years. It's ridiculous to expect that only one true version reache dus -there' Homer's account, and Plato's, and lots of other poets and philosophers and historians gave their interpretation -the state of the 2myth" at that time, or their own personal view of it. And then there's the account foreign people made of their myths, like the Romans...
(BTW, Eagrus, king of Tracia, according to one fo my Classical Mythology Encyclopedias is considered to be orpheus fathers and not apollo. Apollo himself can be the god of music, dance, the arts and the sun in some myths, or an obscure little god according to others.)

And why would Morpheus, or any other of the Endless, chose to behave or act like a god? I see the gods as inferior to the Endless, and so it is inferred form the comics (with the possible exception of the Creator god).

And no, Neil doesn't visit the boards. The only way you can contact him is to send a message thourgh the FAQ thingy on the main website. Although whether he will answer or not is something no one knows...

While we're on it I still have a problem with the Season of Mists ending =P I mean what's with it? I don't like the way the Christian GOd is protrayed as being almost as powerful as all the endless combined; lucifer is more powerful than dream by far, and his creation is at least a small bit more powerful than that.

I know Gods don't get much belief anymore, but still, they did, and there's plenty of them.

The Christian God in Sandman is a god in its prime, as is its counterpart Lucifer. Within its own realm, it is indeed the most powerful creature in existance. Although belief is the product of dream, the dreaming is the product of the dreamers. Since so many dreamers belong to the monotheistic religions, it would be a most formidable creature. Outside the realm of this belief, it would have no power; but this would not matter to it. It knows that it is all-powerful; obviously those places in which it has no power do not exist; and anywhere that it does exist, it is all-powerful.

This sort of circular reasoning is common in dreams and religions.

Dream is bound by the dreamers. I think Destiny, Death and Destruction are undoubtedly more powerful than the Christian god (within the mythology of the series, also in real life, but that's not relevant to this argument) but they are patient. Desire and Despair are part of it, as they are part of all living things.

I think Delerium would be the one Endless that could most easily exercize power over the Christian God. Delusion is not bound by belief; and is often the thing which shapes the object of belief. Delerium could probably even kill it, if she wanted to, if she could stay focused on that task. But, really, why would she want to?

End of pretentious ramble. Feel free to flame me.

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Originally posted by Wetflame:
While we're on it I still have a problem with the Season of Mists ending =P I mean what's with it? I don't like the way the Christian GOd is protrayed as being almost as powerful as all the endless combined; lucifer is more powerful than dream by far, and his creation is at least a small bit more powerful than that.

I know Gods don't get much belief anymore, but still, they did, and there's plenty of them.

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DCU editorial fiat. To avoid being targed by Wertham-like witchunts, the major comic companies make sure the Christian God is the most powerful... in the Companion, Neil said that's how the cosmology of the DCU worked.

(If it all depended on belief, it could explain why Superman is so powerful and why Batman can do things that seem odd for an 'ordinary' human...)

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DCU editorial fiat. To avoid being targed by Wertham-like witchunts, the major comic companies make sure the Christian God is the most powerful...

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But that's just a fancy worded way of being prejudiced against minority religions.

I suppose the amount of belief the Christian God gets makes it more formidable; but nonetheless, I'm going with the Discworld Small Gods Om theory that a lot of people don't really believe in the deity; just the scripture; and that while the other Gods haven't gotten much worship in a long time, they're still older and more experienced.

Sorry if that sounded offensive to Christians, it's just that it works better in fantasy that way I think, and Sandman is fantasy.

Neil has said in interviews (or maybe it was the Companion?) that the God of the Silver City is NOT the Christian god -he is the Creator, and he said the Creator might or might not be the Christian god (the Creator, after all, is the Christian god, the Jewish God and the Moslim's god, as well as the God of a lot of people who do beleieve the world was created but don't care for anything else).
In that sense, I can certainly see him as immensely powerful. My own theory is, the Creator created the Silver City, and Heaven, and Hell... and the whole universe as we know it. There are scattered references in Sandman about this not being the first/only time the Endless exist -ie, there are hints of other universes or dimensions or parallel realities or whatever you want to consider them. So, the Endless, in abstract, in essence, may be more powerful than even the Creator... but not while they are being the Endless in HIS Creation.
If that makes sense.

I heard that explanation before.

But the "creator" in his essence is still very much like the Christian God, so much so you can't really seperate them.

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Originally posted by Wetflame:
While we're on it I still have a problem with the Season of Mists ending =P I mean what's with it? I don't like the way the Christian GOd is protrayed as being almost as powerful as all the endless combined; lucifer is more powerful than dream by far, and his creation is at least a small bit more powerful than that.

I know Gods don't get much belief anymore, but still, they did, and there's plenty of them.

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I don't think the ending of Season of Mists really had to do with anyone's power. I mean the story was pretty much like a fantasy version of a land dispute. Lucifer leaves and Morpheus is pretty much put into the position of a judge. Everyone is pleading their case and the person who created the land and who truly owns it asks for it back. I mean hell was created by God. Lucifer was just the caretaker.

Agree that the ending has little relevance to power - "if it's Creator wishes to take it back, that is His concern, not mine."

Note that this is a discussion on Story, not on religion - so put aside your prejudices, pro- or anti- Christian.
In the Sandman stories, there is an emphasis on power within realms - entities are far more imposing on home turf than they are elsewhere.
Extend that: Lucifer is far more powerful than Dream in Hell, or so claim both those entities.
Azazel is a member of Hell's triumvirate (although certainly still a lesser creature than Lucifer), and Dream doesn't have to stretch to remove him - in dreamland, anyway.
If the Creator is the Creator, then surely all of Creation is His realm? And thus he is more powerful, within his realm, than anything.

Of course, we also know the Endless were before Gods, and thus their realms would be outside Creation.

So: my opinion would go, within the Sandman mythos, Endless within their realms > Creator > Endless when NOT in their individual realms.
Of course, that assumes that the Creator is a God himself, and not something else.

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Originally posted by Wetflame:
I heard that explanation before.

But the "creator" in his essence is still very much like the Christian God, so much so you can't really seperate them.

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I think the Jews and Moslims of the world would not quite agree with their God being called "the Christian God".

I got the impression that the Creator is not a god in the way, say, Bast or Odin are gods. He/She/It doesn't rely on belief for power, just simply is. I guess you can call him the Christian/Muslim/Jewish god because by definition that god was the creator of everything. I suppose that would make the mythological gods "small gods" (discworld reference).

My theory for why there are no Greek Gods in Season of Mists is simply that of all the old mythological pantheons, we are the most familiar with the greek/roman gods, and he just wanted to focus on stories we know less about (like Norse and Japanese mythological beliefs).

Sandman is also set in the DC Universe, where the Greek and Roman pantheons have been through almost as many permutations as Superman and Batman. They're busy on the pages of Wonder Woman and Shazam as well, so you're probably right that he just wanted to focus on some of the less highlighted gods.

That, and the pocket universe that Odin holds, the one that he tries to bribe Morpheus with, is a part of the DC universe continuity, while I don't believe that the Greek gods had any truck at all with the Sandman in any of his incarnations.

There have been periods when the Greek gods were "missing" in the DCU. I'm not sure if Seasons of the Mist occurs during one, but that might explain their absence.