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<Baldur_Moon>
posted
Maybe this is apparent to everyone, but I've never been able to discuss it with anyone. And Neil has suggested it may be true.

I've always thought that Loki and Puck were working for Morpheus, and that Morpheus orchestrated the entire thing.
This is based on Loki owing him a favor (Seasons), Morpheus stating he would come back for Daniel, and his entire behavior about the entire thing. It's obvious Loki and Puck went to far (killing people and whatnot), but I think Morpheus was willing to sacrifice a couple mortals, so that he could die.

What do you think?
 
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naw. sacraficing mortals would be more a Desire thing to do. Dream was all about serving mortals as said in the end of The Doll's House.

you DO indeed bring up an interesting theory however. kinda makes you think.

~ian~
 
Posts: 21 | Location: Evansville, IN, USA | Registered: July 08, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I prefer to think that while Morphie did hire Loki and Puck, he didn't order them to kill people-the did that on their own.
 
Posts: 281 | Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA | Registered: June 15, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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There is a scene in 'The kindly ones' which I simply love. And it could be an answer to the posted question.

Nuala calls Morpheus to ask for a boon. She asks him to love her. In that scene Nuala tells Morpheus "You want them to punish you". Morpheus painful wordless response is pure poetry.
 
Posts: 14 | Location: Madrid, Madrid, Spain | Registered: June 27, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I agree, that is an intruiging theory. However, I was under the impression that Loki deliberately set out to harm Morpheus because he did not want to be indebted to anybody.
 
Posts: 54 | Location: Washington DC | Registered: June 27, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of the once and future falling softly
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quote:
Originally posted by aich:
I agree, that is an intruiging theory. However, I was under the impression that Loki deliberately set out to harm Morpheus because he did not want to be indebted to anybody.



I'm in agreement, add to that the fact that Morpheus went to stop Lyta, yes he orchestrated it but I don't think he played an 'active' roll.
 
Posts: 740 | Location: Birmingham, England | Registered: June 28, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
<Pjalne>
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This is a theory that has been humming around my head for a while, and being from Norway (and thereby being familiar with Loki's persona though mythology), I can say that the most likely answer to this is yes.

Loki would have to return the boon, having something like that hanging over his head would bother him like having snake venom drip onto his head for eterninty, which he knows all about, so there you have it.

He would also be sure to make as much noise as possible while doing his job, wether he was told to or not, so don't worry about the dilemma about Dream killing mortals (which he would never do, especially after his entrapment. He changed a bit, you noticed?), Loki would do this all by himself.

And, obviously, as Dream (subconcially or not) staged his own demise, this is to big a piece of the puzzle NOT to be planned.

There
 
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<Morpheus>
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Judging by Dream's reaction to the death of Ruby in Brief Lives, it is very unlikely that Dream would kill a few mortals on purpose.
 
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I think Death pretty much explained exactly what happened when she accused Dream about it right before she took him.

Puck and Loki were doing pretty much what Dream planned, and wanted, but not because he gave them instruction to do so. Rather because he manipulated the situation to that affect.

As for Loki and Puck killing folks, I agree with the others so far... that's more in their nature than in Dream's.

Beyond that, though, Puck and Loki have both been around long enough to be very well aquainted with both Mortal and Immortal nature, and they're likely to be damned perceptive.

They're both the kinds of creatures who are the source of action in their respective ensembles. I've said before that Loki counters Entropy by his very nature, by setting things into motion that have a domino affect.

I think that's exactly why Dream chose him.

--Ember--
 
Posts: 21 | Registered: July 03, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I could have sworn we already had this conversation...too lazy to look though.
 
Posts: 936 | Location: N. Miami Beach, FL | Registered: June 15, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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umm...okay, I think I shouldn't have included the comment about Morpheus willing to sacrifice mortals for his own ends. It has kind of distracted everyone from my core theory.

If this has been discussed elsewhere, please let me know. I did not mean to repeat a thread. I looked through most of them, and didn't see anything.

Anyway, I think everyone is right. If Loki and Puck were working for Morpheus, the more heinous things were not under his direction or with his approval...BUT, he knew who he was hiring.

Also, about the Nuala quote "you want them to punish you." That's all about being a terrible husband and father, and, most importantly, killing his son. Brief Lives is really Part 1 of The Kindly Ones.

However, about Loki...it's possible that he set the entire thing in motion to destroy Morpheus and thereby, erase his obiligation, hence his fiery speech about "not under any obiligation to anyone" when he killed what's-her-face-neighbor-girl...that's actually kind of interesting...hmm.
 
Posts: 35 | Registered: July 11, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Ah, but (And I'm hoping this is posted in the right order otherwise no-one will know what I'm saying "but" to. I digress.), I don't think that's the case.
Morpheus was the one who set the entire thing in motion (when, though, is anyone's guess), probably by tasking Loki to either fetch or look after the baby Daniel. Morpheus knew that the baby was important, and knew that he'd have a use for him sometime in the future - he'd already begun thinking ahead to his 'replacement'. Whether he knew when this would happen, or not, I couldn't say, but he probably didn't.
As soon as he killed his son, though, he set in chain a series of motions that he may not have foreseen. It's possible at this point that it was Loki who took the intiative. Having learnt of Death killing his son, he knew he'd be fair game for the Furies. All he had to do was invoke the Furies somehow, and he had the means - the baby Daniel.
But it wasn't Loki who set the whole thing in motion - it was Morpheus himself. If he'd wanted control over the situation, he wouldn't have sent Loki to Daniel. But planning to kill oneself - especially if one happens to be an endless being - isn't a task taken lightly, or with much joy. He knew he needed to do it, and couldn't plan the act himself, so he just set the events in motion - such as using Loki - and waited for the end results.
At least, that's how I see it...
 
Posts: 4 | Registered: July 10, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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we have sort of had this discussion before. heres the link:
http://www.americangods.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000029.html

and while i agree that morpheus did commit suicide, i think it was more of a subconscious thing started from preludes and nocturnes, and i dont think loki was working directly for morpheus, mainly because of what he said about not wanted to be indebted to him. i also dont thik morpheus sent loki for daniel, as he later sends the corinthian and mathew to look for daniel, and if hed sent loki already, thats quite improtant information and he would have told them about it as it would have made their job a great deal easier and quicker. i still think lucifer is in ther somewhere for the reasons i stated in the above link, maybe loki was working for him.
 
Posts: 302 | Location: croydon, london, england | Registered: June 19, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Wow - I never thought of it that way. While it was evident that Morpheus' actions in "Brief Lives" set the wheels for "The Kindly Ones" in motion, I always thought of it more as inevitability than intent.

The more I think about it though, the more sense it makes - especially considering Death's rant toward him at the end.

OK. I must dig that book up from the moving boxes and read it again...
 
Posts: 29 | Location: Danbury, CT, USA | Registered: June 27, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Morpheus
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I think that Dream told Loki to get Daniel. Puck somehow got involved either by Loki or Dream. Loki and Puck kidnapped the kid but did not return him to Dream. This is why the Corinthian and Matthew were sent to retrieve him and possibly to punish Loki for the things he had been doing. If you notice Loki was the one who killed Carla and was the only one punished. Puck returned to his realm unharmed. Dream was also going through an emotionally troubling time and was not paying close attention to what was going to happen to him and what people thought of him.

[This message has been edited by Morpheus (edited 07-12-2001).]
 
Posts: 1834 | Registered: July 11, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Morpheus:
I think that Dream told Loki to get Daniel. Puck somehow got involved either by Loki or Dream. Loki and Puck kidnapped the kid but did not return him to Dream. This is why the Corinthian and Matthew were sent to retrieve him and possibly to punish Loki for the things he had been doing. If you notice Loki was the one who killed Carla and was the only one punished. Puck returned to his realm unharmed. Dream was also going through an emotionally troubling time and was not paying close attention to what was going to happen to him and what people thought of him.

[This message has been edited by Morpheus (edited 07-12-2001).]




ahh but the question remains, why then did morpheus not tell the corinthian that he sent loki for daniel already? it just doesnt make sense, as not telling them would be an incredibly stupid thing to do esp. considering how important daniel was to him. thats and lokis rant make me think he wasnt working for morpheus, and moreover that he would never knowingly work for morpheus.

the best way to settle this though is to ask the man himself by posting the question of who was loki working for on the faq page


[This message has been edited by mike (edited 07-12-2001).]
 
Posts: 302 | Location: croydon, london, england | Registered: June 19, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I would be very surprised if Neil answers that question. As I said, I wrote him and asked him, and he replied cryptically. I don't think he wants to answer the question.

Even though I posited the suggestion that Loki started it, I think I still hold to my original theory: that Sandman employed Loki to take and "prepare" Daniel for his eventual transformation. It's obvious that Loki then tried to screw him over (see Morpheus and Odin discussing Loki in the Kindly Ones.) In any case, Loki himself admits to being manipulated after being placed under the snake again. Perhaps, Loki realized what Morpheus' plan ultimately was. He employed Loki, knowing full well that Odin and Thor would eventually find him and imprison him again, and yet, Morpheus got what he wanted.
I'm sure there are some clues in the story. I need to reread that again.

I DO like the idea that Lucifer is somehow responsible for Morpheus' death. Think about this: Lucifer doesn't say "I will kill you", but "I will destroy you". Seasons of Mists is directly related to Brief Lives. Brief Lives is directly related to The Kindly Ones pursuing Morpheus.

Man, that series needs a long study. It is truly a marvel of storytelling.
 
Posts: 35 | Registered: July 11, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Morpheus
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I agree that Lucifer had a small part in destroying Dream. I am planning later today to put up a list of what caused Dream's demise. If Lucifer had never gave Dream the key to Hell then Dream would have never met Loki and employed him in his services. But then again Lucifer could have played a more secret important part in Dream's demise. It all depends on people's interpretation of Lucifer and Delerium's talk in The Kindly Ones part 12 pg. 14. I think that its fascinating that even with some of the things that could have caused Dream's demise that it probably still would have happened because of his treatment of Orpheus. No matter what happened, Delerium would still have asked her brother to help her find Destruction and Dream would have still killed Orpheus.

[This message has been edited by Morpheus (edited 07-12-2001).]
 
Posts: 1834 | Registered: July 11, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Ach. New thought. Dream killed Orpheus because of his increased empathy with human kind, and other "lesser beings" like his son.
So....is NG saying that empathy gets you killed?
Or is it that one must completely abandon one's moral code before a new one would be instituted?
 
Posts: 43 | Location: Olympia,Wa,Usa | Registered: July 01, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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If Morpheus asked Loki to take Daniel and told him not to kill anyone. Maybe when Loki said "I will be under obligation to no-one" the murder of Carla was his form of rebellion against Morpheus.
 
Posts: 13 | Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia | Registered: June 27, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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