Neil Gaiman    www.NeilgaimanBoard.com    www.NeilgaimanBoard.com  Hop To Forum Categories  Neil's Other Works  Hop To Forums  Sandman    The Kindly Ones Theory
Page 1 2 3 4 5 6 
Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
The Kindly Ones Theory
 Login/Join
 
Member
posted Hide Post
While Lucifer could have been who destroyed dream, it could have been Desire, too. And she told in "Three septembers and a january" that one day she would make Dream spill family blood and set the kindly ones after him. And "Brief Lives" takes place because Delirium wants to find her missing brother, which eventually leads to Dream finding his son and killing him. It sounds too much Desire-ish. I find it the simplest of explanations.
 
Posts: 14 | Location: Madrid, Madrid, Spain | Registered: June 27, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
And of course, there is also Thessaly who avoided Dream killing Lyta Hall, thus aiding the destruction of Dream, and there is also Nuala, who calls Dream, who if would have stayed in the Dreaming, could have resisted (or so he says). It seems to me that the death of Morpheus is not a thing of only one person, but a whole chain of events. There is a discussion about it.
 
Posts: 14 | Location: Madrid, Madrid, Spain | Registered: June 27, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
one of the main stumbling blockis for the dream directly using loki theory, though, is that there is still no adequate explanation as to why he didnt tell the corinthian this. it just doesnt make sense, dream is to meticulous and precise a character to simply "forget" to tell them this vital information. i also dont think its dreams style. if he wanted daniel, i think he would have gone and got him himself. the only reason he used the corinthian is because he didnt know where daniel was and couldnt leave the dreaming.

all dreams involvement in his own demise was very subtle and intricate, and using loki feels too overt and too much a heavy handed move for him to do. also i dont think morpheus would want anyone other than himself to "prepare" daniel as you put it. he strikes me as the the sort of character that would want to do it himself, and even if he didnt, using loki to prepare him just doesnt make sense, why loki? why not matthew? or cain and able? or lucien? all would be better choices, and more reliable choices. why use a character who's very nature is betrayal and malice and untrustworthy. i think dream allowed loki to go free more because after his recent capture, he had a certain empathy for loki's plight, rather than having a specific plan at the time of what he could get in return. dream knows what loki is like and i dont think he would ever trust him with such an important job, and to do so would just be stupid. sorry it just doesnt ring true for me. its not the logical, or sensible thing to do and there are too many holes in the theory for me. also i think the kindly ones attacking his realm, and the fact that he didnt want to fight back, was what precipitated him to want to get daniel at that time. even though he knew TKO were going to come after him after he killed orpheus, he didnt know when that would be and so he could have done it himself at any time. it was only after the attack began, which was also precipitated by daniels kidnapping, coz dont forget up till then TKO didnt have anyone to use to attack dream, that things really started to get bad and his need for daniel became more urgent, with the attack stopping him from doing what otherwise he would normally do himself ie get daniel and prepare him.

[This message has been edited by mike (edited 07-13-2001).]

[This message has been edited by mike (edited 07-13-2001).]
 
Posts: 302 | Location: croydon, london, england | Registered: June 19, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Morpheus
posted Hide Post
I have listed all the events that caused Dream's death in my thread, Things that led to Dream's demise.
 
Posts: 1834 | Registered: July 11, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
<Iskall eld>
posted
"I would be very surprised if Neil answers that question. As I said, I wrote him and asked him, and he replied cryptically. I don't think he wants to answer the question.", I read, and that makes sense. I think there is no defenite answer to the question; it´s all up to your own imagination to figure out the details.

Personally, I´m with Lucien. "I think he did a little more than _et it happen", you know.
 
Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
naw. i think Dream was just watching it. like i said before, harming ppl is more a Desire thing to do. Dream had his rules against that. besides, isn't this what Neil wants? for us to bicker over this when even HE doesn't know the answer to the question?

~ian~
 
Posts: 21 | Location: Evansville, IN, USA | Registered: July 08, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
I love this conversation.

I think it is extremely apparent that Morpheus wanted to die. He pretty much admits it to Death at the end, there. He said that he thought that he could keep events in the Dreaming in check, where ultimately no real damage was done. He never says "and I could have survived."

There are two separate discussions here. The sequence of events that led to Morpheus' death and who employed Loki to capture Daniel. The former is extremely involved and intricate. The latter is what I started this thread about. It's hard to separate the two, but I think it is essential to answer the question.

So, I think we have 4 culprits:
1. Morpheus
2. Lucifer
3. Loki himself
4. Desire

To me, I think that in the large context of the Sandman, Loki is kinda lame to be the architect of Morpheus' demise. Lucifer has had a motive since the first storyline. He even said it outloud. Desire has had motive for centuries and has also said it outloud. it seems to be a let down if his evil sister/brother or the devil killed him. that's my opinion, anyways.

The way I see Sandman, though, is not a story about Morpheus and his enemies. It's about how much one character could change. Someone, I think Lucien, in The Wake, said it best, "there were limits to how much he could change".
 
Posts: 35 | Registered: July 11, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Morpheus
posted Hide Post
Dream's death was an intricate suicide. But the people who had a part, whether they realized it or not, are Dream (of course), Desire, Lucifer, Destruction, Roderick Burgess, Thessaly, and Brute and Glob.
 
Posts: 1834 | Registered: July 11, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Clearly, Puck just went along for the ride, no matter who was the mastermind. But in a way, we're all masterminds of our own destinies, so it is true that Morpheus set events in motion that led to his demise. As for who hired Loki, I agree that it doesn't seem a very Morpheus thing to do. He would have sent one of his own after Daniel (like he did when he sent the Corinthian and Matthew), not hired someone completely untrustworthy from outside like Loki. I know I'm just reiterating what everyone else has said, but I hate to feel left out smile
 
Posts: 7 | Location: Locust Valley, NY USA | Registered: July 06, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
I think the reason why Morpheus sent the Corinthian and Matthew after Daniel was because Loki screwed him over and was out of control. He did not tell him that he had hired Loki because he was ashamed after Odin had berated him for releasing Loki and making a deal with him.
 
Posts: 35 | Registered: July 11, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
While the ultimate cause for the death of Morpheus was himself, I doubt of his intention on this subject. I will explain further:

1.- When does Morpheus become conscious of his imminent death?. At the end of "Brief Lives", when he kills his own son.

2.- Then he wants his own death and he kills Orpheus?. No, I don't think so. I think he feels he owes one last favor to his son, and he kills him, whatever the consequences.

3.- Then it wasn't a suicide?, was it plotted by someone else? Who?. I think that up to this point it was plotted by Desire, and from this point, Morpheus himself makes arrangements for his own death.
 
Posts: 14 | Location: Madrid, Madrid, Spain | Registered: June 27, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
I feel that it was a case of the analogy that Dream tells in the wake about how we make cages and back ourselves into them whilst making out surprise when we are trapped by our own actions ...that to me was Morpheus's behaviour pattern from the start , it's a more strange thought that one of the Endless for all intents and purposes may have been behaving as if acting "subconsciously " !
 
Posts: 34 | Location: Bristol , UK | Registered: July 08, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
I think...
that Dream said to Loki that he was in debt to Dream. Morpheus knows that doing that kind of deal with someone like Loki is asking for trouble. He never tells Loki to do anything, but knows that the knowledge of being in debt to someone will drive Loki mad. "I am in obligation to noone!"

Dream knows that Loki will give him trouble, and that is exactly what he wants. Like he says in the Kindly Ones: "I am not suprised by Lokis involment."
 
Posts: 7 | Location: Ljungby, Smaland, Sweden | Registered: July 02, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Administrator/Colporteur
Member
Picture of Dweller in Darkness
posted Hide Post
I think you have to consider the possibility that you're all correct. I think that Morpheus died for a hundred different reasons and as a result of the actions of virtually every character in the story. No one person is immediately responsible for Morpheus' death because, I think, in the world of The Sandman, sometimes bad things happen and there is no easy answer. There was no overarcing plot, there was no archvillain or group of villains, it was the just the Norns, unwinding their cord, and the characters dealing with the consequences, no matter how unpleasant.
 
Posts: 48708 | Location: Concord, NH, USA | Registered: July 20, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
<V.P. Rickard>
posted
I think the task Dream asked of Loki was to bring him Daniel at an unspecified time, and to do so by tricking Lyta Hall into thinking Daniel had died (perhaps accidentally). Dream would have said he needed a trickster because of Lyta's connection to the Furies, which might have been problematic if she thought Dream abducted Daniel and best avoided.

Loki, instead, went AWOL, kidnaped Daniel, made Lyta believe Daniel died gruesomely and caused her to invoke the Furies -- usurping Dream's authority by doing the opposite of what was expected. But Dream, at least subconsciously, knew Loki was untrustworthy and would act to harm him (Odin accused him of this during their encounter in Part 7), thus hastening his death, which he was engineering -- again, at least subconsciously. Dream knew Loki was definitely dangerous and Lyta could also be; they just needed reasons to act against him.

Remember what Loki thought in the last part of Kindly Ones: "In a moment of pain, he gains a certain clarity. The master manipulator realizes how, ultimately -- how strangely, how elegantly -- he too had been manipulated."

An aside: I don't have a solid explanation for Puck's involvement, other than someone had to tell Nuala what was going on so she could yank Dream from the Dreaming. I have heard that Neil planned, but abandoned, a Puck story that would have run a couple of months before "Midsummer Night's Dream." It might have shed light on his reasons.

My question, somewhat related, is: When did Dream become suicidal? His actions from "More than Rubies" and "Doll's House" don't make me think he was then. But by the beginning of "Seasons of Mist," when he foolishly thinks journeying to Hell on an errand of mercy months after he majorly pissed off the Devil himself is smart, it really seems he's got a death wish working. Then at the end, he made the deal with Loki. He already was moving to cause his death.
 
Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
I agree with the above.

Mostly.

I think that Dream *consciously* orchestrated his death. If we agree that Dream tasked Loki to retrieve Daniel and make Lyta think that he died, it was obviously because Dream needed Daniel to become the new Dream after his death, which he knew was coming. He knew that it would happen once he killed his son. That is when he became suicidal, during Brief Lives. That storyline brought home many things to him, namely:
1. How bad he behaves to his love ones (Nadia, Thessaly, Calliope, Orpheus).
2. How much things have changed
3. His imminent death following the spilling of family blood because of his only act of kindness towards his son.
 
Posts: 35 | Registered: July 11, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
<V.P. Rickard>
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baldur_Moon:
3. His imminent death following the spilling of family blood because of his only act of kindness towards his son.




Ooo, good point. I have to admit I hadn't noticed that. I can't decide for myself how conscious Dream was of causing his death. As I said, he did many things that would indicate he had a death wish (another being searching out Destruction knowing the consequences), but neither himself nor any of the other characters ever remarked on the pattern. Neil can be pretty subtle, which I think is a great writing trait.
 
Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Morpheus
posted Hide Post
[QUOTE]Originally posted by V.P. Rickard:
Ooo, good point. I have to admit I hadn't noticed that. I can't decide for myself how conscious Dream was of causing his death. As I said, he did many things that would indicate he had a death wish (another being searching out Destruction knowing the consequences), but neither himself nor any of the other characters ever remarked on the pattern. Neil can be pretty subtle, which I think is a great writing trait.[/QUOTE

I think that Dream probably became concious of his death AFTER he killed Orpheus. The only reason he agreed to search for Destruction was to hopefully see Thessaly. Its like what you would probably do if you were out somewhere and you knew that one of your friends liked to hang out somewhere nearby. You would go to the place they frequently hang out and hope to see them. Dream stated many times that he did not expect to find Destruction. Dream didn't go straight to Destiny when he and Delerium started their trip. He also didn't originally think of Orpheus as an oracle when talking to Destiny. The earliest Dream could have known about his death was after realizing that Orpheus was an oracle. If Ruby never died and Delerium wasn't upset Dream would have never met with Orpheus. The only characters that knew about Dream's death were Destiny and the Furies.
 
Posts: 1834 | Registered: July 11, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
After reading all the posts, I am left with the thought that Desire was very much involved. In my mind, it was not below Desire to play on Dream's failed attempts at love, then make Dream wish to die for so many more reasons. Besides, it's Desire's job! So Dream is suicidal and goes about ending that particular chain of events. Maybe.
 
Posts: 5 | Registered: July 22, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of Morpheus
posted Hide Post
If Desire didn't rape Unity Kinkaid, then Rose Walker wouldn't have been the vortex. But since Rose was the vortex, that would have meant if Dream killed Rose, he would have been killing a member of the family. Desire also reminded Dream of his doomed love affairs causing Dream to go to Hell, causing the whole Seasons of Mists story. These are the only events that Desire had in Dream's death. It could be said that Desire fueled Orpheus's desire (sorry couldn't think of another word) for death. Desire also could have went with Delerium to find their brother, but I doubt that was an contributing factor to Dream's demise. Brute and Glob probably had more of a hand in Dream's death by their actions in the Dollhouse than Desire did in the series.

[This message has been edited by Morpheus (edited 07-23-2001).]
 
Posts: 1834 | Registered: July 11, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
  Powered by Social Strata Page 1 2 3 4 5 6  
 

Neil Gaiman    www.NeilgaimanBoard.com    www.NeilgaimanBoard.com  Hop To Forum Categories  Neil's Other Works  Hop To Forums  Sandman    The Kindly Ones Theory

© YourCopy 2001