what's your opinion of her and how do you think she changed from delight?

I know there's a right answer out there that Neil's not telling, which is wicked of him, but my current thoughts on the subject (it changes) : I think it's telling that Delerium is so young. I think that Delight represents childhood and being so new in the world, and as you spend more time in the world and as you age, you realize things aren't as peachy-keen as they're portrayed, and you get confused about what your parents told you vs what actually is and something clicks in your brain and all of a sudden you see the world through different eyes. That's my current theory.

I always thought that, since the Endless also represent their opposites, that Despair's opposite was delight, so Delight had to change her area of influence.

I also think it had something to do with the rise of recreational drug use in the 20th century.

Del changed long before the 20th century - we know this, because she remembers talking to Destruction when she's between identities (no longer Delight, not yet Delirium). Destruction disappeared in the 17th (?) century. And in the 20th century, she is most definitely Delirium.

OK, I just referred to my copy of Brief Lives. Del's memory of her past appears in chapter 2, page 20: "...they stood on the hill (because this was on Earth in the dawn days, even then he spent a lot of time on Earth)."

quote:

Originally posted by aitapata:
I know there's a right answer out there that Neil's not telling, which is wicked of him, but my current thoughts on the subject (it changes) : I think it's telling that Delerium is so young. I think that Delight represents childhood and being so new in the world, and as you spend more time in the world and as you age, you realize things aren't as peachy-keen as they're portrayed, and you get confused about what your parents told you vs what actually is and something clicks in your brain and all of a sudden you see the world through different eyes. That's my current theory.

I was thinking along those lines too, but in a larger sense. I would say that Del's change took place around the time of the Original Sin. We know that Neil is very knowledgeable about mythology, and likes to make connections. Why not make a Biblical connection too?

My take on it (I'm going to paraphrase heavily, so be warned): In Earth's "dawn days," Adam and Eve lived in harmony with each other and their surroundings; they were innocent, just as young children are innocent, and obeyed God (their father) without question. Then the serpent introduced a new idea (eating the forbidden fruit) that prompted Eve to disobey, and she in turn passed the information to Adam. Eating the fruit got them in trouble: they were cast out of Eden and had to fend for themselves. It made them grow up (quickly) and see the world through different eyes.

That incident alone wouldn't change Delight to Delirium, but it did start her transformation. Cain's jealousy of Abel, the subsequent murder, and all the other unreasonable, vicious acts that humans did to each other following that are what made Delerium what and who she is now. I think Del's change is a commentary on how insane the human race is.

yes, but in my point of view the Endless are timeless. for example, in the Orpheus story Delirium still wears her fishnets, and Death lives in her modern apartment. in my opinion, she could still have been affected by something a while down the line.

have you guys read endless nights? i read deleriums tale as being the story of how she changed (i know it is endlessly cryptic tho)

my feeling at the moment is that it might have been something to do with destruction leaving. certainly he is the one that looks after her when she comes back as delerium.
i also think she may have been imprisoned, a little bit like dream but differently, almost by choice: if she found a girl in the real world who she became too involved with-as delight-and then bad things started happening to the girl and she was too far in and couldn't escape, and she ended up being changed as a result.
there seems to be a "change or die" mentality running through a lot of the sandman

There's about a page in Brief Lives where we see the delightful Delight, tripping gaily through fields of flowers, then she starts giggling for no reason and that's the madness setting in and she is consoled by Destruction, so, she must have altered long before he went off on his sabbatical - and their costumes should give some clues too. As far as the how and why goes, personally, I reckon Delight only existed for a very short time - in mankind's age of innocence, and, once that was over, she became who she is now - it perhaps even coincided with Cain's murder of Abel.

I just thought to look at it in a simple way.

How do ordinary people get mad? Or to be specific, how would a delightful girl loose her mind?

Something bad and drastic must have happened directly to Delight.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: extrarice2,

Sammael: where in brief lives is that? i can't find it. all i can find in mine is when her and dream go to see destiny:
"do you know why I stopped being delight, my brother? I do. There are things not in your book. There are paths outside your garden...Coins have two sides. Destruction told us that, when he left us...But I knew it already"
I agree that something pretty bad must have happened to her when she was delight personally, rather than it just reflecting humanity

quote:

Originally posted by Suite Madame Blue:
OK, I just referred to my copy of Brief Lives. Del's memory of her past appears in chapter 2, page 20: "...they stood on the hill (because this was on Earth in the dawn days, even then he spent a lot of time on Earth)."

I reread Del's story in Endless Nights, and it's the story of a girl very deep within Delirium's realm. She seems to be in danger of getting lost in there, which is why Barnabus gathers a group who can navigate through the madness and lead her back.

It does make sense that something happened directly to Delight. She seems to feel things so deeply, such as when Destruction left. Could Desire have been the one to tempt Eve with the fruit, or cause the serpent to do the deed? I was thinking about this last night, and it sounds like something s/he would do, just for fun. And Delight, upon discovering that her sibling was the one who caused Adam and Eve to be sent from Eden, would have been devastated. Thoughts?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Suite Madame Blue,

ok, i am at work and don't have my copy in front of me, but the thing that confuses me in endless night:
who is barnabus talking to when they are trying to get the girl back? i can't make it out from the writing.
and also, when she does come back isn't it delerium that we see saying something like "Is it over? I went so far."
but i can definitely imagine desire having something to do with the fall. Although the other thing I would say is that dream, death and destiny are often referred to as the older endless, while despair, desire and delerium are the younger. could this represent what human emotions were present pre/post fall? *but* death didn't exist in eden did it? so it may not make sense for desire to be there at that stage either.
too many questions!

Well, the Endless certainly predate the Earth - look at Dream's story in Endless Nights - but you're right that Death wouldn't have any business in Eden. None of the Endless except Destiny would have, because Adam and Eve were insulated from reality. Neil just uses a lot of Earth references because they don't require lots of explanation. I don't know if Desire needed to sneak into the Garden, or if s/he had access anyway.

I can't get to my copy of Endless Nights either. I'll have to look through the story tomorrow and get back to you on who's talking.

It's mentioned at some point that Delirium will change again. It's only a fleeting line (of Destruction's, I think) and it doesn't appear any earlier than Brief Lives. I'm rereading through at the moment, so I'll look out for it. If the line is there, though, it would seem to suggest that the changes are preordained or in some way predictable - at least in Delerium's case.

Aha! It is in Brief Lives, at the end of Chapter 8 - Destruction says to Delerium:

'I trust that when your next change comes, it proves easy on you.'

So presumably, there is reason to know that Delight becoming Delirium isn't a one-off event. Also: earlier in the same story, Delerium confronts Destiny in his garden and, after asking whether or not he knows why she changed, states that she does, and that he would to do well to remember that there are some things which aren't in his book. What's interesting about this is that Destiny says nothing to the contrary, only commenting on her togetherness - which isn't exactly confirmation, but it isn't denial, either.

So maybe the change is just something fundamental to Del as one of the Endless?

hmm, i would say that if change is fundamental to her then her change wouldn't have been outside destiny's book/garden as we hear in brief lives. I also think that you can't really have an endless for whom change is necessary or they aren't really an endless.
i know this kind of goes against what i said earlier about the change or die mentality but i think that is slightly different. I'm not explaining this very well but i think terry pratchett does it quite well in discworld, particularly thief of time where he talks about the anthromorphic personifications (death, time, the rest of the horsemen etc) being changed by their constant contact with humans. i think that the endless are changed to that extent but deleriums shift to me seems to go beyond that.

I was reading The Kindly Ones last night and there's another Delirium line which stood out - she's talking to Dream and for a moment says something coherent, and when he asks her about it, she says, 'People think I don't know things but I do. I know more of us than any of us. I know that.' So I'm starting to like my theory that Delirium does know something Destiny doesn't, or at least that Dream and the others don't, about herself. Gaiman has a love of the madman prophet, and I think that comes through with Delirium - there's something powerful and lovely about the idea that only the crazy ones know the truth, but that they can never convey it to anyone or be trusted about it because, well, they're crazy. Kind of like how only the weird homeless guy understands what's happened to Lyta.

This is an interesting thread which has sparked a few questions for me to ponder. Perhaps someone out there can provide some further enlightment?

1. If Delight transformed/changed/progressed into Delerium, what triggered this? Extrarice2's post mentioned a simple view, stating that "Something bad and drastic must have happened directly to Delight." However, I don't entirely believe this is the case as Dream experienced the bad and drastic death of his son - yet he ultimately remained, Dream. Aitapata posted that Delight is Delerium's youth. Which causes me to wonder what were the rest of the Endless in their youths?

2. Also, correct me (it's been a while since I read the series) but I believe at one point there was mention that Destruction also experienced a transformation into Destruction...?

3. Sysrae did some R&D for her post that Delerium will enter another transformation. So if the Endless are to shift/change as humanity does, why isn't the rest of the Endless changing as well?

Well Dream has a strong character so for him the loss of his son is not a delirious event.

Looking at Delight - a happy, innocent girl, -rape (or sexual abuse) could be the reason. The suspect? Hmmm. The porridge thickens..

quote:

Originally posted by Swordfishtrombones:
This is an interesting thread which has sparked a few questions for me to ponder. Perhaps someone out there can provide some further enlightment?

1. If Delight transformed/changed/progressed into Delerium, what triggered this? Extrarice2's post mentioned a simple view, stating that "Something bad and drastic must have happened directly to Delight." However, I don't entirely believe this is the case as Dream experienced the bad and drastic death of his son - yet he ultimately remained, Dream. Aitapata posted that Delight is Delerium's youth. Which causes me to wonder what were the rest of the Endless in their youths?

2. Also, correct me (it's been a while since I read the series) but I believe at one point there was mention that Destruction also experienced a transformation into Destruction...?

3. Sysrae did some R&D for her post that Delerium will enter another transformation. So if the Endless are to shift/change as humanity does, why isn't the rest of the Endless changing as well?

I think that's kind of taking things out of context. Perhaps something was lost in translation? Thanks for the response, though.

Well, why shouldn't Del have her own peculiarities? I don't think that, just because she changes, the other Endless should change, too.

Hmm. Just thinking. When Dream dies, Abel lets a mystery slip - they aren't moruning a person, but a point of view. We know that the endless can step away from their roles, as Destruction has done. But Delight becoming Delirium...what if it was as much a change in point of view as anything else?