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Who killed the first Despair (my opinion)
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I think Destruction did. I have my reasons. Debate.


Mathew, you have no pennies.
 
Posts: 3 | Registered: January 20, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hmmm...Destruction. Interesting theory.
Do we have any idea when the first Despair died? Maybe it was because the time that she died was a time when people were generally happy, and didn't dwell on her. It would take away her strength, possibly even killing her.
Or it could have been that people no longer felt true despair; that it was a kind of secondary emotion. The old, "pure" Despair would have died, and a new Endless would take over--one that controlled the despair by secondary causes....Or maybe vice versa?


*...Listening to the Chambers of your Heart...*
 
Posts: 53 | Registered: September 07, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I don't think the Endless exist at the whim of the beings they affect. the gods need belief to sustain them, but the Endless are beyond belief. they just are.

that said, I have no idea why Despair died. I didn't think he gave any hints...what'd I miss?


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Posts: 7134 | Location: the gloaming | Registered: November 29, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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We only ever get one glimpse of the first Despair. It is in Endless Nights, and it's set many years before any other story (you can tell, at that point Delirium was Delight). In the whole duration the first time you see the second Despair is in Orpheus, included in Fables and Reflections. The only two hints that Gaiman (as far I know, because he's hidden stuff in the text before) gave were the following:

* In World's End, a character tells a story placed shortly after the first Despair's death, about how the six living members of the Endless needed to retrieve a book (owned by Despair)from a boisterous civilization.

* In The Wake, the new Dream casually mentions to his mother (Lyta) that the person who had killed the first Despair had more of a reason then Lyta had in having the first Dream killed.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Mw/NNrules,


"It may be those who do most, dream most." - Stephen Leacock
 
Posts: 67 | Location: Where ever you're not. | Registered: November 26, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hmm, I'm not really sure why I think that, it's just an opinion... or perhaps the Endless change along with the Universe, and thus Despair transforms, as did Delight, as did Destruction by leaving, as did Dream...


Mathew, you have no pennies.
 
Posts: 3 | Registered: January 20, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Here's another theory: The first Despair killed herself after falling in love with, and then being betrayed by, the person who then became the second Despair.

I believe that Daniel says, in The Wake, that the person "responsible for" Despair's death would suffer until the end of time. Someone could be held "responsible for" Despair's death without actually having killed her, so this leaves open the possibility that she killed herself after having been hurt by someone else. And our Despair seems, to me at least, to be fundamentally miserable, so perhaps she's in the process of "suffering until the end of time. She has also referred to the original despair as "a grand lady" and a hard act to follow--maybe she feels this way because she was once her predecessor's lover.

It just seems apt to me that the first Despair would have gotten caught on her own hook, so to speak, leading to her suicide.
 
Posts: 4 | Registered: April 14, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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You beat me to it, Slvn - I agree wholeheartedly with your reasoning. Also, doesn't Dream perform a 'complicated form of suicide' himself? I don't reckon there are many other beings capable of destroying any of the Endless - or willing to invoke the eternal wrath of their siblings by doing so. I like the poetry of Despair's damning herself...and there is the wood of the suicides in Hell that appears in Preludes and Nocturnes to consider...the Catholic belief that suicides are condemned to a hell of their own making.


cause and effect:
the best often die by their own hand just to get away, and those left behind can never quite understand why anybody
would ever want to get away
from them.
Charles Bukowski Septuagenarian Stew
 
Posts: 243 | Location: lies to the east of Eden | Registered: February 02, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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in "the wake", Dream says that someone was responsible for the death of the first despair, in the same way the Lyta was responsible for Dream's death.
"the person who was responsible for the death of the first Despair will take the rest of eternity to die. Only then will his pain cease....
And he had better cause for what he did then you."
Pg88, box4
It is a He. It is a person. he had a strong reason for doing so. He is in permanent pain, and that wont end for a while yet.

I don't think we have met this character.
I would doubt it was Destruction, as he is present when they gather to get the sacred cloths etc.
Despair says of her former self in pg76, "i think of the first despair sometimes, it must have been over a hundred thousand years since anyone thought of her but me.
an eyeblink, and she is forgotten"
so we know it has been A LONG TIME since the change over.


---------------------------------
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Posts: 43 | Location: beyond good and evil | Registered: May 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hmm... interesting - Lucifer? Cain or Abel? One of the male Endless - Destiny or Destruction? Or perhaps one of those condemned to Hades? Ixion? Tantalus? Sisyphus? Prometheus? It's the endless pain thing that provides the greatest clue. But, who would have the power? Narrows things down a tad.


cause and effect:
the best often die by their own hand just to get away, and those left behind can never quite understand why anybody
would ever want to get away
from them.
Charles Bukowski Septuagenarian Stew
 
Posts: 243 | Location: lies to the east of Eden | Registered: February 02, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I don't think Gaiman ever knew who killed Despair, and we'll never know either, but it's interesting to speculate yeah. I think her death is just part of the back story. It helps create the impression that the Sandman universe is a long, long story, and the events of the books themselves are just one section of it. Like in Dream's Endless Nights story when we finally meet Delight, or learn that Dream and Desire used to be best pals.


----------------------------------

Black Wings loves all of you, even though many of you are new since he vanished for a year.

Boundless love for all!
 
Posts: 614 | Location: London, England | Registered: February 23, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted January 26, 2008 03:44 PM Hide Post
We only ever get one glimpse of the first Despair. It is in Endless Nights, and it's set many years before any other story (you can tell, at that point Delirium was Delight). In the whole duration the first time you see the second Despair is in Orpheus, included in Fables and Reflections. The only two hints that Gaiman (as far I know, because he's hidden stuff in the text before) gave were the following:

* In World's End, a character tells a story placed shortly after the first Despair's death, about how the six living members of the Endless needed to retrieve a book (owned by Despair)from a boisterous civilization.

* In The Wake, the new Dream casually mentions to his mother (Lyta) that the person who had killed the first Despair had more of a reason then Lyta had in having the first Dream killed.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Mw/NNrules, April 17, 2008 02:56 PM


"It may be those who do most, dream most." - Stephen Leacock



Whoever killed Despair 1) had a good reason for doing it 2) is connected to a powerful book that Destiny lost and 3) is still paying for it.

So who killed Despair (i.e. brought Hope), knew all about a certain powerful book, and (according to some) is still paying for it? Regularly? Every time a priest says Mass? It was Jesus.
 
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