Hi everyone, I got i thing I just cannot get straight. In The Wake we can read that one day Daniel also has to smach his emerald just as Morpheus had his ruby smached. On one level this means that one day even Daniel has to pass on right?

Does this also mean thar Morpheus maybe wasn't the first Dream? Well, I mean if this thing that Dream of the Endless has to pass on every ohhh.. fev billions of years or so, can it be that Morpheus wasn't THE Sandman, but just one of them? Thank for answer!

I don't think they mention a Dream before Morpheus, but it is definitely possible, seeing as how Despair used to be someone else, and all. One day, they'll all be gone, and Death will just bundle everything up in the end.

We can see this as the young sorcerer Tim gets a tour to the end of the universe in Books of Magic.

But I don't see why they should have to change every once in a while. I think it was meant that it would be the one and the same from the beginning to the end, but events occur otherwise and it forces some of the Endless out, to be replaced by others.

Also, it's nice to see a fellow Swede on the board.

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Hellish and gorgeous!

Yes, one day Daniel has to smash the emerald. But the ruby had nothing to do with Morpheus dying. I seriously doubt that the emerald will have anything with Daniel's death (if he does die before the end of the universe).

About Dreams before Morpheus? No. The tradepaperback Fables & Reflections mentions Morpheus being Dream since the beginning of the earth and Endless Nights (due out Sept. I believe) has a story (I believe) with the Endless at the beginning of time and Morpheus is Dream during that time. So Morpheus was the first Dream.

None of the Endless has an expiration date where someone else has to fill their shoes. But they can die. To my knowledge Delerium was the first Endless to change positions (from Delight to Delerium but still the same person) and Despair was the first of the Endless to die (you can probably find out where the first Despair appears in the series by doing some research and making a timeline). Morpheus is the second of the Endless to die. Now it could be hypothesized that Death cannot die.

You're welcome. If you want to ask any other questions feel free to ask and welcome to the board!

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Originally posted by Morpheus:
Now it could be hypothesized that Death cannot die.

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Heh, but in The High Cost of Living, she actually returns to her realm by falling backwards in water and putting coins in her eyes, so you could say that she's died

I know, I know.. cheap joke :P

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Hellish and gorgeous!

Yeah, there are numerous moments where Morpheus says things like, "I created it at the beginning of time" and at one point someone says something about Despair being replaced that shows it was the first time that one of the endless died and one of their aspects had to take their place. The only reason that Morpheus died was that he had been forced, by time and by his situation, to change, and was unable to do so.

I think that refers to Despair being Desire's twin. It was the first time that any one of them had been "destroyed and replaced with an aspect of another" or something like that, I.E. the first Despair wasn't Desire's twin, and actually the quote implies that other Endless have indeed died, but been replaced in a more traditional fashion.

A sidetrack: Obviously Desire arranged for Despair to be it's twin because, I quote, "Desire has never been satisfied with one of anything", even one of itself. It's concievable that it even set up the first Despair's death. . .

But then there's the Jill tHOMPSON STORY OF THE START OF THE UNIVERSE, WITH LIL' DREAM AS HE IS UNTIL THE WAKE. SO....?

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Originally posted by marcos:
But then there's the Jill tHOMPSON STORY OF THE START OF THE UNIVERSE, WITH LIL' DREAM AS HE IS UNTIL THE WAKE. SO....?

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Could you please clarify which story you're talking about?

Here's the three Jill Thompson stories with Morpheus:

1. In the Fables & Reflections trade there is a story that Abel is telling Daniel about Morpheus being Dream when the world was first created. (For the story about Morpheus as Dream at the very beginning of the universe wait for Endless Nights).

2. In Brief Lives there is a brief scene where Destiny's book shows a glimpse of the future (Daniel as Dream in the Kindly Ones trade).

3. Jill Thompson's Lil' Endless Storybook- This is just a cute tale she did. It doesn't fit into the Sandman universe (evidenced by Morpheus still having his ruby and Destruction still being on that island). Just a writer/artist playing around. Nothing to be taken serious and not part of the actual Sandman story. She often likes to draw Morpheus with the ruby still for stylistic reasons I guess. Check this statue based off her new Sandman story for proof on this thread: http://www.neilgaimanboard.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=733605825&f=508604665&m=1856044283

[This message was edited by Morpheus on July 28, 2003 at 03:13 PM.]

Desire and Despair are different beings. They came into existence at the same metaphorical time, because people learned to desire and despair at the same time; it's a chicken and the egg sort of thing. People started wanting things, and were sad when they didn't get them, so they wanted them more to prevent that sadness, so they were sad if they couldn't get them, ad infinitum. Although the story hasn't (yet) been told, at some point Despair died, and then some other aspect of Despair, like a bat or something, became Despair, the same way that Daniel became Morpheus. Despair talks, in The Wake, about how only she remembers "the old Despair," and how she was a nice old lady and such.

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Originally posted by phool2056:
Although the story hasn't (yet) been told, at some point Despair died, and then some other aspect of Despair, like a bat or something, became Despair, the same way that Daniel became Morpheus.

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Bat?

I think that maybe Despair was just some human that was somehow involved with the person who killed the original Despair. Or maybe a replacement was just made.

I said "bat" because the bats seem to be the only other creatures in Despair's realm. And it does say "another aspect of us had to take our place." I thought that Daniel was chosen by dream because he had "gestated" in the dreamworld, which made him partly a dream himself. Pure conjecture. Neil should tell us the story of how Despair was killed and replaced. It's gotta be good. Or even someone else of similar talent. I mean, it's probably the same sort of tragic downfall as Morpheus', right?

Rats were mainly the creatures in Despair's realm. I think the bat was a messenger to Despair.

I think it would be cool if the second Despair was the person who the first Despair possibly did something to. Because something happened to this person, a man (the gender of the killer was revealed in The Wake) killed the original Despair. The person who Despair tortured or whatever took her place.

Quiet, you! I never make mistakes! If I say Despair has bats in her realm, then Despair has bats in her realm! Regardless of what Neil actually put there!
Actually, I noticed that and realized my mistake this morning, from reading The Wake. I just remembered the picture of Despair talking to the bat in the opening issue of the wake, and some comment Delirium made about "flappy things." Many apologies. Let's not get bogged down in details, shall we?

Agreed. Let's not get bogged down in details. Ever since I started writing a Sandman movie script for fun I've realized many details I overlooked, so I'm not trying to sound arrogant or a know-it-all. It's just an annoying habit I've picked up.

"The person who was responsible for the death of the first Despair will take the rest of eternity to die. Only then will his pain cease."
If it were "only then will HER pain cease," I might say, yeah, awesome, t shows that Despair is miserable, and the worst punishment possible would be to become the next Despair, but the gender is wrong. Unless I misunderstood you, which I have a feeling...

Haha. Yeah. I think I didn't phrase that too well. I meant that there was probably a woman who Despair tortured/affected. This guy then kills Despair because of what she did to this girl. The man is punished and part of his punishment could be the girl he loved was turned into the new Despair.

Yeah, alright. It works. Although I do seem to recall the new Despair saying of the old Despair that she remembered her as a "nice old lady," so that might jibe with your idea, although it could be I just imagined her saying that.

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It was the first time that one of us had been destroyed, that an aspect of another had taken their place

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Yeah, something quite like that. I can't remember the exact words and I think it is in Season of Mist, which I don't have at home. x_o

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The Will to Help and The Will to Use is what separates good people from bad. I think.

CORRECTION: It was in Brief Lives, in the finale.

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It was not easy for any of us. It was the only time that one of the Endless had been destroyed, that another aspect of one of us had reassumed the position: We all had much to adjust to.

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The Will to Help and The Will to Use is what separates good people from bad. I think.

Yeah, see, so it'd be another aspect of Despair. In Dream's case, the meaning of that is pretty clear: anything in the Dreaming, including the place itself, is an aspect of Dream. He chose Daniel because Daniel was both an aspect of dreams, having gestated so long in the dreaming, and a human child, with a human point of view. In Despair's case, I don't know. Is anyone who despairs an aspect of Despair? Or does it have to be something that she created in her realm, the same way that Dream (sort of) creates the stuff in the Dreaming? And in any case-**muffled sound of explosion as phool2056's thought-congested head explodes**