I guess it can be interpreted either way. But it definelty mean either

a) Despair and Dream are the only Endless who have "been destroyed" or

b) The current Despair was created out of/with the aid of Desire.

*goes to sleep*

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The Will to Help and The Will to Use is what separates good people from bad. I think.

It seems to me that your first one is right, and your second one there is conjecture, fan-wanking as LoN or someone like that put it. I mean, there is no evidence to support that Desire was instrumental in any way to Despair's being destroyed and replaced other than their close relationship. Unless maybe I misunderstand you.

The story of the original Despair is one i'd like to see written someday, preferably by Neil himself, as likely/unlikely as that may be. i've my own conjectures and in my brain is stored some fanfic ideas on the topic.

yes, someday Daniel must destroy the Emerald. i've always perceived that as more of a release of a physical manifestation of power, like a focus or "fetish", that, once destroyed, means you must rely more on yourself rather than some outside source.

quote:

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The only reason that Morpheus died was that he had been forced, by time and by his situation, to change, and was unable to do so.

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Death, in and of itself, is a change.

True, but he chose the change that would supposedly end his having to deal with stuff. I mean, he decided that rather than accepting his own transformation into a more sympathetic person(kind of), he decided to end his own existence. I am completely unable to put into persuasive wording what I'm thinking right now. A shadow of it is, his being gone entirely is something he felt was true to himself, and his continued existence in a changed state he felt was violating the rules he'd set for himself.

I see what you're saying Phool. I always thought that Morpheus couldn't go on living because he realized how he hurt others (Calliope, Orpheus, Nada, Ruby) and how that because he was unable to accept that he had changed he was unable to find true happiness (intimate relationships). He also possibly realized that they're exceptions to the rules but couldn't make any exceptions.

quote:

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Originally posted by phool:
"The person who was responsible for the death of the first Despair will take the rest of eternity to die. Only then will his pain cease."

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for some strange reason, i keep thinking that this guy is jesus christ who is made to suffer for the rest of eternity for alleviating people's despair of ever returning to god's grace.

er. at any rate, it'd be interesting if this man is a very famous historical figure.

wednesday's child is full of woe.

quote:

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Originally posted by sputnik sweetheart:
for some strange reason, i keep thinking that this guy is jesus christ who is made to suffer for the rest of eternity for alleviating people's despair of ever returning to god's grace.

er. at any rate, it'd be interesting if this man is a very famous historical figure.

wednesday's child is full of woe.

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That's a nice theory. I don't think it's Jesus though due to the fact that he's more powerful than the Endless. Remember in Seasons of Mists that it is stated that Lucifer is more powerful than the Endless. And God is more powerful than Lucifer. That would mean that Jesus is more powerful too due to the fact that he's part of the Trinity (Father, Son, & Holy Ghost/Spirit).

It's weird to talk about it this way, but it seems to me that Jesus really isn't all that powerful at all, at least as far as the Sandman mythos are concerned. He's probably more powerful than most of the gods we meet, because people believe in him and worship him, but it strikes me that his powers probably consist mainly of being very persuasive and easy to follow. Which might not help him if Despair got her clutches on him. It's a good idea, although I don't know how much Jesus (if he existed) actually did in terms of killing Despair. I mean, there have been a lot of very sad people since he died, many of them sad as a result of his actions and other people's iterpretations of his teachings.

Jesus probably dosen't exist in the Sandman universe. The editors won't let him.

Seriously, this is how it works: Sandman is part of the DC universe-- specifically, the portion known as Vertigo. When Rick Veitch was writing Swamp Thing (he took over from Alan Moore), he wanted to end it with a story involving Jesus' crucifiction. The editors wouldn't let him, and he quit in disgust.
Considering that Swamp Thing and Sandman share at least one major supporting character (Matthew Cable, aka Matthew the Raven) and are in the same universe in so many other ways, I doubt that the story of Jesus is gone over much there.
Of course, that may change. However, the DCU already has a savior/resurrection myth. Neil alludes to it in Preludes and Nocturnes, in the theif's dream.
Alright... i'll stop being coy and put it this way: why would they need Jesus when they have Superman?

Excelsior!

~~~~~~~~~

Join the Church of the Risen Morrison!

Roy Orbison singing for the lonely
Hey thats me and I want you only
Don't turn me home again
I just can't face myself alone again
Bruce Springsteen, "Thunder Road"

"To fall in love is to create a religion with a fallible God"-- Jorge Luis Borges

http://lon.blogspot.com-- Its a slightly less eloquent me

quote:

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Originally posted by The Lord of Nothings:
Jesus probably dosen't exist in the Sandman universe. The editors won't let him.

Seriously, this is how it works: Sandman is part of the DC universe-- specifically, the portion known as Vertigo. When Rick Veitch was writing Swamp Thing (he took over from Alan Moore), he wanted to end it with a story involving Jesus' crucifiction. The editors wouldn't let him, and he quit in disgust.
Considering that Swamp Thing and Sandman share at least one major supporting character (Matthew Cable, aka Matthew the Raven) and are in the same universe in so many other ways, I doubt that the story of Jesus is gone over much there.
Of course, that may change. However, the DCU already has a savior/resurrection myth. Neil alludes to it in Preludes and Nocturnes, in the theif's dream.
Alright... i'll stop being coy and put it this way: why would they need Jesus when they have Superman?

Excelsior!

~~~~~~~~~

Join the Church of the Risen Morrison!

_Roy Orbison singing for the lonely
Hey thats me and I want you only
Don't turn me home again
I just can't face myself alone again_
Bruce Springsteen, "Thunder Road"

"To fall in love is to create a religion with a fallible God"-- Jorge Luis Borges

http://lon.blogspot.com-- Its a slightly less eloquent me

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I heard a rumor that they might actually make release that Swamp Thing story.

I'd think the major concern wouldn't be simply the inclusion of Jesus into the DC mythos, but an offensive inclusion. Making him just another mutant, or an alien, or playing Christ as an archetype of the Swamp Thing (not that that's the plot Veitch was going with, just sayin') wouldn't be cool, and the powers that be say something offensive in the plot-line.

Quite frankly, I think Jesus works well in the Swamp Thing mythos, at least.

~ no snowflake ever falls in the wrong place ~
__________
AJGraeme

quote:

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Originally posted by The Lord of Nothings:
When Rick Veitch was writing Swamp Thing (he took over from Alan Moore), he wanted to end it with a story involving Jesus' crucifiction. The editors wouldn't let him, and he quit in disgust.

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There's a little more to it then that.
Rick Veitch vowed not to work for DC until the issue was printed. (I think he recently backed off on that and was in an ABC title). The problem wasn't so much that he was told he couldn't use Jesus, but that he was told it WAS ok, and the issue was drawn, and only after that, someone above Karen Berger (his editor) nixed it because of media backlash. Veitch refused to change the comic.
The art does exist, I think Kevin Eastman has them.
I do have some more details on the back story laying around, but I'd have to dig around to find the articles.*
What really sucks is that the story was going to be the end of Rick Veitch's run, and Swamp Thing was going to be taken over by Jamie Delano and Neil Gaiman, each doing 6 months a year (as they both had other titles to write as well and couldn't do another full year title). Neil's Swamp Thing Annual was going to be the first of regular contributions. *sigh*

*found it - for more info, read Overstreet's Fan #12 and Neil's intro to the Swamp Thing Annual reprint in Midnight Days

So it's okay to have portrayals of gods that were once the center of faith for thousands of people and are still worshipped, but not to have the one who happens to be the most popular at the moment? Just think of all the Vikings, Egyptians, and Romans spinning in their graves!

PS. LoN, just because Jesus hasn't been in any DCU stories doesn't mean he doesn't exist there. We're talking about the mythos of the Sandman, not what DC will permit in it's comic books. Who cares what the editors say?

PPS Also, Preacher is a DC/Vertigo publication, and it denies that the (alleged) miracle of Christ's resurrection even took place! Not only denies it, but twists it into something that would be easily construed as obscene. Far more so than saying that Jesus killed Despair when he came back to life.

I just think it would be extremely out of character for Jesus to kill Despair.

quote:

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Originally posted by phool:


PS. LoN, just because Jesus hasn't been in any DCU stories doesn't mean he doesn't exist there. We're talking about the mythos of the Sandman, not what DC will permit in it's comic books. Who cares what the editors say?

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Because the mythos of Sandman is part of the DC mythos. Neil comments on it several times in the companion-- he's given freedom with Sandman, but he can't blatently violate DC continuity.

quote:

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PPS Also, Preacher is a DC/Vertigo publication, and it denies that the (alleged) miracle of Christ's resurrection even took place! Not only denies it, but twists it into something that would be easily construed as obscene. Far more so than saying that Jesus killed Despair when he came back to life.

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I think the whole "Jesus killed Despair" is silly... and Preacher isn't in the DCU. Sandman is.



I'm just thinking of this old Dr. Strange story where a time traveling mage turned out to be God... great story, and i realized that took courage from then....

Excelsior!

~~~~~~~~~

Join the Church of the Risen Morrison!

Roy Orbison singing for the lonely
Hey thats me and I want you only
Don't turn me home again
I just can't face myself alone again
Bruce Springsteen, "Thunder Road"

"To fall in love is to create a religion with a fallible God"-- Jorge Luis Borges

http://lon.blogspot.com-- Its a slightly less eloquent me

Are you saying that in the DCU, Jesus never existed? I seem to recall, for starters, a scene with a priest in Kindly Ones. And lots of crosses in Batman. I am most emphatically not a Christian, and I also think the idea that it was Jesus who killed Despair is a little far-fetched (but still damn creative, whoever thought of it), but I see no real reason that Jesus couldn't make an appearance in a DC story. I'm pretty sure that if that story weren't written by Gaiman, Moore, Ennis or maybe Kevin Smith that I wouldn't like it and would think it was kind of pretentious, but it could happen. I mean, just because Superman hadn't ever died before 1995 or whenever it was didn't mean that THAT couldn't happen, either.

Phool, I think LON got distracted by one of his pet peeves: people suggesting that Sandman isn't part of the DC universe.
I have an old (Jan 1989) interview with Neil that mentions a project he proposed where DC characters would meet God, since it's pretty much implied there is one in the DCU. (Obviously, nothing came of the idea).
It wouldn't be hard to find stories that blatantly imply a Christian God/Jesus exist (esp. christmas feel-good stories, and all the angels running around), but even so, to outright say they do and show them crosses borders most people aren't comfortable being crossed

I surrender!

you say you surrender, but I can see your avatar and you're still holding your gun!

The Phantom Stranger is also another risky character back then when you consider that one of his many origins said he was the Wandering Jew. This is also set in the DCU.