Sandman? Summer course? Are you a CTYer?

the (Hamilton, '99 and '00) floyd

Yeah, I am. How could you tell?

Like I said... you were introduced to Sandman at a summer program. Sounds preatty CTYish. Where did you go?

maybe a stupid question but, what's a CTYer?

Illustry

My friend has just finished the Kindly Ones. She is upset that Morpheus died. I thought this was humurous:

Friend: You can definitely tell this was written by a man!
Morpheus: How's that?
Friend: Because someone finally loves Morpheus and the idiot kills himself!

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Originally posted by Morpheus:
...Friend: You can definitely tell this was written by a man!
Morpheus: How's that?
Friend: Because someone finally loves Morpheus and the idiot kills himself!

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I would have said that she missed the point of why Morpheus killed himself and that the fairy princess in question didn't really love him, but was in love with the idea that there was a male personna that could accept her as she was without the aid of a glamour spell!

Morpheus was loved by many women and was incapable of loving any of them because he allowed his responsibilities to take precedence over his personal needs. He even allowed his son to meet a terrible fate and had to agree to kill him just to make peace with his estranged brother, and she wonders why he killed himself?

I was CTYI. 99 World Geopolitics, 00 Decision Maths, 01 Computer Applications. But there were lots of Americans there. I think Blair and David were mostly responsible for Sandman in our class. It was something of an obsession, and rather got in the way of learning to prove that 2^1/2 is irrational.

Hmmm...I thought I posted a reply to this already...maybe it'll show up somewhere. Anyway, I was CTYI. 99-01.

And CTY stands for Centre for Talented Youth. People do the SAT1 and if they get above a certain score at a certain age they get to go. We do cool stuff like learn why numbers are and read Sandman.

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Originally posted by Elric3960:

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Originally posted by Morpheus:
[b]...Friend: You can definitely tell this was written by a man!
Morpheus: How's that?
Friend: Because someone finally loves Morpheus and the idiot kills himself!

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I would have said that she missed the point of why Morpheus killed himself and that the fairy princess in question didn't really love him, but was in love with the idea that there was a male personna that could accept her as she was without the aid of a glamour spell!

Morpheus was loved by many women and was incapable of loving any of them because he allowed his responsibilities to take precedence over his personal needs. He even allowed his son to meet a terrible fate and had to agree to kill him just to make peace with his estranged brother, and she wonders why he killed himself?

[/B]

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Actually she knows why he died, she was just really upset that he had to die (technically Morpheus could have ran off with Nuala).

I also think that Nuala really did love Morpheus. Morpheus didn't pay a lot of attention to Nuala when she was working for him. So how can she be in love with the idea of a man falling for her without her glamour? Morpheus made no intentions that he wanted to have a relationship with Nuala, but she always wanted to (as evidenced by her hoping he would not let her go home).

Let's see... my fave CTY in-joke is the one about how it got its name... in ancient Greece, when you commited a crime, you wore a badge with that crime on it. Socrates was convicted of Corrupting the Youth. Thus, he became the first CTYer.
Like she said, its a collection of freaks and weirdos. She left out the fact that they're really horny freaks and weirds constrained to a really tight scedule.
I think i got one or two people into Sandman... I took Crafting the Essay and Ethics. Both in Clinton, NY. Plus, CTY gave my name to the college i'm going to now, which was handy...
Where are you from, Teleute?

the (do they call them "nevermores" there, too?) floyd

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Originally posted by Morpheus:
Actually she knows why he died, she was just really upset that he had to die (technically Morpheus [b]could have ran off with Nuala).

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That would be inconsistent with the Morpheus who could have "run off" with Nada but didn't, the Morpheus that could have brought Euridice back from the dead for his son but didn't, could have made peace with Calliope sooner than he did but didn't, could have avoided doing what he did to Alianora but didn't...should I go on?

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I also think that Nuala really did love Morpheus. Morpheus didn't pay a lot of attention to Nuala when she was working for him. So how can she be in love with the idea of a man falling for her without her glamour?

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Simple. By refusing to see what was right in front of her own eyes! An entity who was so caught up in his own problems that he didn't even notice her when she was there and didn't show an ounce of remorse when she announced that she was leaving! Do you need further proof? What does she do when she returns to the Land of Faerie? She disgards her glamour, prepares to defy her queen, gets furious with her brother for interfering, wish that Morpheus would appear and begs him to "love her," and when she's confronted with the cold, hard truth, runs away from Faerie to points unknown! Love or an impulsive act of infatuation brought on by loneliness and frustration over being forced to be a false object of desire? If the latter, I rest my case.

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Morpheus made no intentions that he wanted to have a relationship with Nuala, but she always wanted to (as evidenced by her hoping he would not let her go home).[/B]

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Thank you for not only proving my point, but also pointing out why Neil Gaiman is such a brilliant writer! He doesn't create characters that behave like people should; they behave like people do!!!! Some of them are naive and incapable of seeing the truth when it's staring them in the face, like Nuala, and some of them create their own problems without even thinking about it, like Morpheus. Perhaps your friend should have been warned about that before she decided to get upset because she wasn't reading a Harlequin Romance novel!


[This message has been edited by Elric3960 (edited 03-06-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Elric3960 (edited 03-06-2002).]

quote:

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Originally posted by Elric3960:

quote:

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Originally posted by Morpheus:
[b] Actually she knows why he died, she was just really upset that he had to die (technically Morpheus [b]could have ran off with Nuala).

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That would be inconsistent with the Morpheus who could have "run off" with Nada but didn't, the Morpheus that could have brought Euridice back from the dead for his son but didn't, could have made peace with Calliope sooner than he did but didn't, could have avoided doing what he did to Alianora but didn't...should I go on?

quote:

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I also think that Nuala really did love Morpheus. Morpheus didn't pay a lot of attention to Nuala when she was working for him. So how can she be in love with the idea of a man falling for her without her glamour?

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Simple. By refusing to see what was right in front of her own eyes! An entity who was so caught up in his own problems that he didn't even notice her when she was there and didn't show an ounce of remorse when she announced that she was leaving! Do you need further proof? What does she do when she returns to the Land of Faerie? She disgards her glamour, prepares to defy her queen, gets furious with her brother for interfering, wish that Morpheus would appear and begs him to "love her," and when she's confronted with the cold, hard truth, runs away from Faerie to points unknown! Love or an impulsive act of infatuation brought on by loneliness and frustration over being forced to be a false object of desire? If the latter, I rest my case.

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Morpheus made no intentions that he wanted to have a relationship with Nuala, but she always wanted to (as evidenced by her hoping he would not let her go home).[/B]

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Thank you for not only proving my point, but also pointing out why Neil Gaiman is such a brilliant writer! He doesn't create characters that behave like people should; they behave like people do!!!! Some of them are naive and incapable of seeing the truth when it's staring them in the face, like Nuala, and some of them create their own problems without even thinking about it, like Morpheus. Perhaps your friend should have been warned about that before she decided to get upset because she wasn't reading a Harlequin Romance novel!


[This message has been edited by Elric3960 (edited 03-06-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Elric3960 (edited 03-06-2002).][/B]

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Points taken. My opinions may get a little skewed since I've read some of the Dreaming. Even though Neil didn't write them, they still count. Nuala finally went back to having her glamour on by the way and is romantically involved with Lucien.

aargh! Another Dreaming spoiler!! Bad Morpheus, bad! (well, it's not that serious, by the itme I will be able to read those issues I will have forgotten about this)
Anyway, I dont agree with you, Elric. I think Nuala did love him. I dont think you have to look for a reasoning to her love, she just did. Girls just fall in love with the Sandman.
Nuala refused to put on her glamour back becasue she knew he didnt like it -in fact, it is implied that Titania herself is sort of in love with him, but he did not pay her any notice. And the reason she left Faerie was that she didnt belong there any more, she was changed.

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Originally posted by cloverheart:
Anyway, I dont agree with you, Elric. I think Nuala did love him. I dont think you have to look for a reasoning to her love, she just did. Girls just fall in love with the Sandman.
Nuala refused to put on her glamour back becasue she knew he didnt like it -in fact, it is implied that Titania herself is sort of in love with him, but he did not pay her any notice. And the reason she left Faerie was that she didnt belong there any more, she was changed.[/B]

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I disagree.... I don't think Girls fall in love with the sandman.... he's just like everything else in the story...... impressive... the females to wich you are all reffering to, are all impressed... but not in love... you cannot be inlove with someone who is not at least a little interested in you back...... therefore the only one who really loved morpheus was nada.... the african chica that ends up in hell..... now... this is my point..... that (I think it was) elrich was right.... Neil Gaimans brilliance is illustrated by is ability to portray people not as they should be, but as they are....... well yeah you know what I mean.. elrich said it better but yeah.... people have motivations for the things they do.. even if they won't admit it to themselfs or see it for themselves... Neil sees that... that's why we are all so impressed with Neil.. very much the way "girls just fall in love with the sandman".... he's just so impressive.... *grin*... anyways...... logic in this case tends to favor the "male" point of view... but I would be pressed to say it's strictly male... as I am female and I feel that way too.... *shrug*....

Illustry

To Illustry: Thank you for your kind and enlightened words. While I will admit that love has very little to do with logic, I for one believe it is extremely illogical for any being to fall in love with someone who doesn't love them back! Even Desire had noted in Season of the Mist that Morpheus has had trouble having a love life, and she/he should know!

To Cloverheart: My very point was that she didn't belong in Faerie anymore because she probably came to the realization that she had a shallow and false purpose being there! The Queen of the Fairies made no secret of the fact that she and Morpheus had a history together, especially in her "cryptic" eulogy in "The Wake."

I believe that Nuala "changed" because she discovered that she could get along just fine without the glamour! At least that's how I interpreted the ending of her story in the Sandman Series. Apparently, the writer of "The Dreaming" strongly disagreed with that viewpoint!

To Morpheus: While I haven't read The Dreaming, I have read the two Lucifer collections. I was pleasantly surprised that some of the characters that Neil created could be explored with the same perceptivity of what made them special with little intervention by their "creator." I would tend to disagree with how Nuala was handled if she's pursuing a relationship with Lucien. At no point in Sandman did Neil even imply that Lucien had a life outside of the Library of Dreams and I'm a little disappointed that another writer felt the need to introduce that concept just to put a different spin on him and to give Nuala an excuse to "revert to her old ways" while at the same time possibly making the end of the "original" series potentially pointless. Maybe I'm jumping to a false conclusion, who knows.

First fo all, I completely agree about Neil writing about how people is and not how they should be and that making him a great author. That's why I loved his writing from the very first time, it felt real -and that's why I like A Game of You so much, it's a "real" story, with all the ugly parts in it.
I still think it is VERY possible to be in love with someone ho doesn't take an interest in you. WhY? I have been, and I think lots of other people too. It's no logical, it's stupid, but it can happen. And you desperately seek some sign from the other part that might show he cares about you. In Nuala's case, remember in A Game of You when she informs Morpheus that she warmedn Barbie against his saying, and he says she did the right thing, and Nuala is so happy. I can imagine her going through that moment again and again in her mind, remembering his words coumtless times and being happy just for that.
And when I said girls fall in love with him, I meant he's the type that attracts women -maybe not for a long time though. I think Thessaly was certainly in love with him, so were Nuala and Titania -of course the last one just was coz he took no notice of her-, and probably Nada was the one who loved him most, as I think Morpheus himself loved Nada the most. Alianore we dont know, we dont know who wa sin love with whom, so we cannot say.

Actually, it is possible to fall in love with somebody (this really should be called a crush).

Actually, you could interpret Lucien as having a little bit of a crush on Nuala by the comment he made about liking her singing.

She doesn't really become romantically involved until the end of the Dreaming when they think its gonna start having a

SPOILER

civil war.

I forgot to add that there is a reason Nuala has her glamour back (other than she wants it too).

I would be more inclined to go with the term "crush" rather than "love" to describe what Nuala felt, Cloverheart. Love, to me, means having a strong interpersonal tie with someone. This was what Morpheus might have felt for Nada, considering that he wanted her to sit by his side as his queen. I think that what he an Thessaly had was more of a fling than a love affair. Read "The Kindly Ones" and "The Wake" again and see if you don't agree. As for Titania, it's debatable whether she's capable of experiencing what most people would define as love due to the nature of her species and her personal nature.

As I said earlier, I haven't read The Dreaming yet, but I suppose that any set of circumstances could occur that could cause the characters to behave in different ways than they did in the original Sandman series. It's just a little disappointing when an author feels the need to put his/her own imprint on a character that someone else created just for effect. Hopefully this isn't the case.

Well, we dont have the word "crush" in Spanish, so I dont know exactly what it means. I always thought it was the typical feeling you got when you're a teenager -not that you cannot feeling when you're older- you know, it's closer to just liking osmeone, and all the butterfly feeling you get when he loks your way. Yeah, it might be Nuala just had a crush.
But I STILL think you can LOVE without being loved back. And you can love for very short period of time, as Thessaly and Morpheus did.Elric, you say love was what Morpheus and Nada felt for each other... I dont disgaree, but think about this: how much time did they sepnd together? How well did they know each other? Nuala, Thessaly ebven Titania were longer in his company, knew him much better. If you count Thessaly just as a love affair, what would Nada be? If you think about this you could say Nada was justa one-night satnd... They saw each toher, felt attracted to each other, made love and all ended badly. HOw deep would you say was their love? If you just look at the cold facts, Nada was just another affair. But I think love is not that simple, you can fall madly in love in a second with someoen you dont know and you can never get to love someone whom youg get along really well no matter how much time you spend together. Love, as it's been said, is illogical -especially, since love includes, in my opinion, a certain amount of desire. And we all know how tricky Desire can be

[This message has been edited by cloverheart (edited 03-08-2002).]