And going back to topic, I just re-read some parts of A Game of You, and now I saw what most of you could find so disturbing... But for me, it's got so many moments of beauty in it -not the outstanding beauty of, for example, The Wake, but the isolated, small, unnoticed beauty from everyday life. Example?
-Each time Wanda says "Barbie is in danger? We must help her! -she's the only one who is really other interested in helping Barbie, the others just let themsleves be guided or seek revenge
-When Barbie decides to help her old frinds because she feel she has to, though it seems an impossible task.
Actually, self-sacrifice is a great theme of the whole story line.
-Barbie giving some change to the I-dont-like-dogs lady
-Said lady talking about her nephew, and how his mother said he was "the daughter she never had"
-Barbie writing "Wanda" with tacky lipstick on her grave
Plus it's got very funny moments.

Forgive me, Cloverheart. I just assumed that since your responses were so well-written that English was your first if not your only language. You have an accurate grasp of most English words including "crush." It is a whimsical emotion usually expressed by teenaged girls when they encounter dominant male-images. This is the point that I tried to convey in my earlier postings. Again, you have a better understanding of English than you realize. For the record, in "The Kindly Ones" I got the impression that Morpheus and Thessaly had a less-than-romantic parting than he had with Nada and Calliope, for example, which gave me the impression that it wasn't as "involved." His romance with Nada was admittedly short-lived, but at least they saw each other as a complement to each other, albeit in different ways. There was no indication that Thessaly viewed anyone as her equal or a potential extention of herself, hence I don't believe that her love for Morpheus was as intense as Nada's and vice versa.

Getting back to the "main point," I accepted all of the characters as genuine and well-drawn. I didn't have a favorite, but I definitely would agree that Wanda/Alvin had the closest bond with Barbie and the other characters were more-or-less caught up with their own problems. Maisie Hill, the I-don't-like-dogs lady, had a wonderful scene with Wanda that left a bittersweet taste in my mouth when both characters died, which I suppose was a desired effect" of the story. Unnerving but brilliant! As I said, true art!

quote:

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Originally posted by Elric3960:
Forgive me, Cloverheart. I just assumed that since your responses were so well-written that English was your first if not your [b]only language. You have an accurate grasp of most English words including "crush." It is a whimsical emotion usually expressed by teenaged girls when they encounter dominant male-images. This is the point that I tried to convey in my earlier postings. Again, you have a better understanding of English than you realize. For the record, in "The Kindly Ones" I got the impression that Morpheus and Thessaly had a less-than-romantic parting than he had with Nada and Calliope, for example, which gave me the impression that it wasn't as "involved." His romance with Nada was admittedly short-lived, but at least they saw each other as a complement to each other, albeit in different ways. There was no indication that Thessaly viewed anyone as her equal or a potential extention of herself, hence I don't believe that her love for Morpheus was as intense as Nada's and vice versa.

Getting back to the "main point," I accepted all of the characters as genuine and well-drawn. I didn't have a favorite, but I definitely would agree that Wanda/Alvin had the closest bond with Barbie and the other characters were more-or-less caught up with their own problems. Maisie Hill, the I-don't-like-dogs lady, had a wonderful scene with Wanda that left a bittersweet taste in my mouth when both characters died, which I suppose was a desired effect" of the story. Unnerving but brilliant! As I said, true art!

[/B]

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I also concede to cloverhearts prowess of the english language.. the mear fact that she has reached outside her native language in her reading reportoir is quite impresive... something I haven't been able to do (though I have tried)....

I suppose I'd like to go back to what she said about love, though...... Truely, it is an extrordinarily complex issue.... I once heard it described. "Defining love is like stapling jello to a tree"... or something to that effect... and I'll concede that different people believe different things about the ways in which they feel love..... I too, have been mad about someone who had no intrest in me, and I believe it feels very much LIKE love.... from the inside.... BUT!!! the proverbial "IT" is NOT love because it cannot be.... love is what happens between TWO people's emotions.... not one..(IMHO, of course)... you can love someone, perhaps.... but it is not love unless it's a two way street.... perhaps we are at a loss here because we haven't a word to use in respect to this condition.... "crush" is not the right word for it, I agree with cloverheart about that.... "crush" has too many insinuations of nievatae(sp?)... and when you love someone it is usually not because of nievatae.... it is because you genuinely feel much admiration and adoration for the person..... but there has to be some differentiation between THAT and love, as well as a differentiation between THAT and a "crush"...... ....... ......*shrug*..... as for the original topic, I haven't gotten my copy of a GoY out yet, though I will be doing that tomarrow (it's 3:00 am here!I need sleep!)as this conversation has me intrigued at what I may find upon the rereading of it, bearing the conversation in mind..... so thank you all for the inspiration.

anyways.. thanks again for listening,
Illustry M.W.

I personally don't know if Cloverheart read GoY in English or Spanish, but it doesn't matter. I too am impressed by her insights, even though I don't agree with some of them. I can say the same about Illustry's viewpoint of how the words "crush" and "naivete" are interconnected. I have felt crushes with ladies over the years and by no means considered myself naive for doing so. I was just being realistic enough to admit that if I pursued a relationship with the lady I had a crush on, nothing would come of it. Perhaps that's why Nuala felt compelled to ask Dream to fall in love with her. She felt that a "wish" would eliminate the reality that she didn't want to face: Morpheus didn't and couldn't love her. I wouldn't call that being naive so much as being immature. Hence, an immature form of love or "crush."

Speaking of love, I would be very interested to read how men and women viewed the loving relationship that Hazel and Foxglove had for each other. I think that it's interesting how Foxglove used anger, then compliance, as a response to Hazel's pregnancy and that was interpreted as love. If a man said those words that Foxglove used, I strongly doubt that it would have been interpreted that way by female readers. Women can be verbally abusive to other women, men can be verbally abusive to men, and even women can be verbally abusive to men and most women wouldn't have a problem with it. But if a man is verbally abusive to a woman, regardless of the context or subtext, that type of man tends to look like a monster in most women's eyes.

At least that's my interpretation of life as I see it.



[This message has been edited by Elric3960 (edited 03-10-2002).]

LoN, I tried to send you an e-mail rather than clogging up the boards with more CTYi-related stuff, but either you didn't get it or my junk filter got to your reply before I did. Care to clarify?

I got it, but i didn't reply 'cause... um... i've been incredibly lazy lately... basically, anything not FPL-related i've been putting off. Its really sad. I'll respond now... and i'm sorry about that. I really need a life.

the (is this living?) floyd

I recently read the sandman companion and when i saw that Neil said alot of people didnt like this arch, i just about flipped out. As soon as I was done reading a game of you, i was so excited and full of energy, it was one of the best stories in the sandman series, I believe. I loved it. It was fatansy and adventure, horror and comedy and it all fit so fuckin perfect. Every panel had me looking for the next one, and all the charecters being so different from what we expect is, In my mind, the most brilliant thing Neil has done, though I still have 2 sandman books to go.

Being a heterosexual male that reads quite a bit of 'adventure' type books, I loved Game Of You. I nearly cried when I saw Wanda standing next to Death. It was a wonderful ending. It's the same kind of feeling when watching 'Iron Giant' and the giant says "I'm Superman!" just before hitting the missile: sort of a big expansive feeling in your chest.

gmzoe: changed spoilers to Iron Giant to white. I HAVEN'T SEEN IT YET AND PLAN TO!!! grrrr

This message has been edited. Last edited by: GMZoe,

When I picked up A Game of You, I'd heard what I was in for. Not from anybody I actually knew, but, hell, a paragraph on the wikipedia article is close enough. Instead of throwing it down before giving it a chance, I read the whole thing. I know that rereads can be essential in "getting" something, but since reading this, I haven't truly considered picking it up again.

Did the no bullshit witch bother me? No. In fact, she may have been the redeemeing point of the story arc. Did the lesbian couple bother me? No. I've never been homophobic, and passed that easily. Did the themes of men being abusive bother me? Well, all the males (with the exception of the cuddly animals of Narnia) in this were dickheads anyway. I disliked the preppy couple I remembered for The Doll's House, but this really shed more light on them.
Did the Woman Formerly Known as Alvin bother me? A little bit. For one, the idea of a sex change makes me a bit uncomfortable, and I also didn't quite like her character (though she/he was a good person, and probably had a tough life).
I could deal with the lack of Morpheus. My main problem was with the protagonist: Barbie. She rakes up pity for having a former dick as a boyfriend, but in the end her search for identity left me both bored and confused. She didn't strike me as being a strong, likable character the way seemingly every other female in the story was.
Kind of reminded me of a soap opera.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Mw/NNrules,

I never really had any problems with A Game of You - Barbie's dream world and the whole cuckoo business worked for me, as did Thessaly and the witching tale - my heart bled for the devoted Martin Tenbones, even if he was just a stuffed toy - it read, to my humble heart, like a faerie tale, and I found it incredibly redemptive for that - perhaps there's an element of homophobia involveed with those who claim to hate it, because of the transexual character, and the sympathy that is elicited for her at the end. Personally - and I do believe Mr Gaiman would agree with this, as he was still finding his feet - I think Preludes and Nocturnes is the weakest of the whole series - and it's still bloody brilliant - we get to meet Lucifer 'Hello Dream.' And the epilogue with Death and Dream is exquisite. A Game of You isn't my favourite - that's a mix between Season of Mists and Brief Lifes - but I would certainly say that it holds its own with A Doll's House, Dream Country and The Kindly ones.

It is odd, i will completely agree. It is like the book of Daniel in the Bible.
Its weird, it doesn't quite make sense first time round and has strong visual imagery. But Jesus quotes extensively from Daniel later on, so without Daniel, the later books fall apart (so to speak).
With-out GoY, the rest of the story doesn't work.
I will agree i read it less often then some others, but i still read it.

Next time you pick it up, notice the use of the word "Cute". Trust me.

I just re-read GoY to refresh my memory, and now I'm going to have to go back and look for the word "cute." Darn you, Lord Groan!

Oh wait, I just remembered the cute frog cup and Wanda's reluctance to be seen with it!

My impression after going through it again was that it's a good story, but the ending is dissatisfying. Neil wrapped up everyone else, but left us hanging where Barbie's concerned. She doesn't know where she's going or what she's doing next. I know that life is sometimes like that, but that's frustrating for me when a story ends.

the cuckoo also describes itself as cute, when bewitching Barbie.

And SMBlue, i've yet to read a Neil story where it does end with happily ever after and all the storylines are wrapped up nicely.

Went and looked it up: "awful cute." Which is a nice oxymoron on Neil's part. Funny how the word cute takes on such negative connotations in this story.

I don't need "happily ever after," just a definite conclusion. I never felt so unsettled with Neverwhere, for example. That has an open ending, but you're fairly certain what happens next. GoY has a more ambiguous ending than other works, and I feel like he left me hanging where Barbie's concerned. She's left with nothing: her home's been destroyed, her friends won't talk to her, and she doesn't know her next move - she's just kind of floating.

It's very much like Catcher in the Rye, with Barbie in Holden Caulfield's position. Granted, she has more reason to coast than Holden did. That doesn't mean I have to like it.

But she has herself, her identity - surely that's worth more than material wealth?