quote:

Originally posted by ravagedpoet:
Firstly, Aita, I understand that, and I know it may be a bit out of place, but I can't help how I feel, y'know?

Ah, but surely a writer such as yourself must recognize the importance of timing, and where certain dialogues and exposition belong and where they do not?

That was a rhetorical question. Don't answer it.

quote:

I am just challenging the fundamental way of thinking that society has grown into the human mind.

And once again, this thread is not the place for it. If you want to start up another topic, fine. Do not continue it in this thread. Consider this a warning.

quote:

Originally posted by ravagedpoet:
Firstly, Aita, I understand that, and I know it may be a bit out of place, but I can't help how I feel, y'know?

And you have to let us know how you feel about something that you say is information you don't care about because . . . ?

quote:

Secondly, Junglebum, I know it may be out of curiousity, but where did the curiousity come from?

For myself personally, the curiosity comes from my interest in what makes other people tick and my own personal spiritual journey - which includes understanding what others have learned on their personal spiritual journeys. If I wish to incorporate things I learned from them into my belief system, bless them for being themselves and for showing me something new.

quote:

Because it all bounces back to society in general, having their noses stuck up everybody else's butt. I'm not saying you, I am speaking in general for society as a whole. Everyone is different, but society dictates a lot of stuff, and I look to the day when people set aside downcasting each other's differences. But the way I feel, not everyone feels, but I feel that if everyone could respect everyone's differences, and not dig their noses up each other's butt, then this world wouldbe a peaceful place. I don't say this out of meanness, I just say how I feel. I'm not saying its okay for people to know, I am just challenging the fundamental way of thinking that society has grown into the human mind.

I think I can understand where your coming from because I have a lot of opinions about society myself, but the way I see it the best way to stop downcasting each other's differences is to talk about them and to understand them. Without that understanding, we, as humans, will always be fighting against those differences because we find them threatening and/or strange.

It's not about getting into everyone's personal business. People share what they want to share. It's not slanderous or malicious.

quote:

Originally posted by Junglebum:
You know how people who grow up in areas like the old worlds, who believe in all the wood spirits or whatever, but instead grow up in a city like New York or Chicago: what kind of city gods are there?

Leaving aside Americans - for the moment - don't forget that all the Greek and Roman, the Egyptian (and probably the Persian/Etruscan - etc.) gods - were CITY GODS. Very well established cities with strong organized religions - and healthy arts and sciences, cultural centers, etc. (oh, and seemy underbellies - what's a city without one!) Anyway, a lot of them do have urban stories.

quote:

Originally posted by Cele:
Anyway, a lot of them do have urban stories.

Yes, urban stories. Sigh. So much has been torn down and rebuilt that even my own childhood memories no longer have places to return to verify they once were real. The grade school both my father and I went to is gone. All the imaginings and far away places I would go to within those walls and wooden floors.

The old theater that my grandmother managed, where I was given free range to roam (within reason) is gone and now a parking garage for a casino.

The creepy old farm on the edge of town is now an upper middle class subdivision surrounded by a golf course. I wonder where all the zombies have gone. All the stories we'd tell to frighten our friends.

SIGH. Write us another story soon Neil so the cloak rooms in our memories can be filled with far away adventure.

quote:

Originally posted by Chomiji:
1) There is indeed a person named David Gaiman who is a big deal in Scientology.

Wouldn't you think he'd mention Scientology if this was indeed part of his background?

- Cho

I know we've pretty much abandoned this topic, but I was reading Hanging out with the Dream king, and on p. 13 (paperback ed.) Gaiman says:

'My dad is a wonderful public speaker. As a kid, I used to watch him get up and talk and I would think, how does he do that?'

I know he doesn't mention anything about what his father was talking about, but to me it seemes like it was a regular thing, which would imply that he was some sort of member of something that required him to talk in front of people on a regular basis. However, that doesn't prove, even slightly, that it had anything to do with Scientology. Either way, the only thing we have to go on are rumors, and since Gaiman doesn't want to comment on it, it's probably best to let it lie (and even so, here I am, restarting the discussion... oh well, I'll shut up now)

Just thought some of you might be interested in that quote.

quote:

Originally posted by aliasmoi:

Ummmm... let's not go there...

Why not? Neil does. We do too. Quite often, really. We go lots of places. We have a Tardis, you know.

I personally have quite a fondness for a quote found in Fables and Reflections:"

"Any view of things that is not strange is false."

It's true too. well, I think it is. you might not. but we all have different ideas of strange, you know?

*edit* whoops, thread necromancy, anyone? How did I get here, I wonder... I do not recall...

This message has been edited. Last edited by: VegaRiad,

quote:

Originally posted by Cele:

quote:

Originally posted by Junglebum:
You know how people who grow up in areas like the old worlds, who believe in all the wood spirits or whatever, but instead grow up in a city like New York or Chicago: what kind of city gods are there?

Leaving aside Americans - for the moment - don't forget that all the Greek and Roman, the Egyptian (and probably the Persian/Etruscan - etc.) gods - were CITY GODS. Very well established cities with strong organized religions - and healthy arts and sciences, cultural centers, etc. (oh, and seemy underbellies - what's a city without one!) Anyway, a lot of them do have urban stories.

Sorry, I am coming in VERY late on this conversation. (I hadn't seen it before until VegaRiad just bumped it.) There are indeed urban gods here in Taiwan on "active duty." A major "city god," neighborhood deities, ghost police, spirit bureaucrats, and so on. Gods are not only nature gods in Taiwan local religion, although we have them too. It is a pretty complete mirror world. I know it's been too long since the original post, but I like this, so I just thought I'd share anyway.

(About Scientology, L. Ron Hubbard was a skilled hypnotist and is reported to have told one of his friends that the way to get rich was to start a religion. Many of their "auditing" techniques are hypnotic, pure and simple. And their illegal actions in the past are a matter of public record. The beliefs in aliens and whatnot are NOT why many people consider them a cult that is of danger to people. Here is some interesting reading: an e-book biography called Bare-Faced Messiah or this report on Australia's official inquiry into Scientology.)

Kindly pardon me if I seem overly judgmental or closed-minded to you, but my former employer had dealings with them that were quite scary, so I am not really neutral on this topic.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Xiao Bai,

From the Wikipedia page on Neil:
"His father, David Gaiman, is a prominent Scientologist, and in 1968 a school headmaster refused to admit Neil to a preparatory school unit because of this, creating national headlines"

Of course one should take everything on Wikepedia with a grain of salt. The entry about his dad is really fascinating, though.

Oops! Here's the link to his Dad's page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Gaiman

hmmmm...i had no idea he was even linked to Scientology in any way. it's one of the "religions" i find somewhat creepy...like the Church of Latter-Day Saints or Christian Science...because they seem so cult-like...in that they don't allow any kind of dissent.
but just because his family is involved with them...doesn't mean he is. my father is agnostic (his parents were too..but their parents were Hindu)...my mother is an Evangelical Lutheran and i was raised as one too...but we attended services at a supposedly non-denominational chapel in the US...yet it was comprised mostly of fundamentalist Baptists whose mission was to convert the members of other religions to their kind of Christianity. then i went to a Catholic high school...and after that, i had a decade-long relationship with a conservative Jew whom i considered marrying. i call myself agnostic now...because i believe in the presence of a god...but i don't believe in organized religion. anyway, based on my history, i assume that anyone who tried to guess my religious preference would be confused.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: thegirlthattimeforgot,

I think its a given that religion in general is a pretty sticky subject since it has been the catalyst for so much change and stagnation in the world. I am a little afraid to post because this is both an inflamatory subject, and likely to be wordy...sorry in advance...

Regarding Neil's religion...

First, I do hope that as individuals we aren't automatically the religion that our parents are/were interested in or else I'm seriously mad at my mother.
She went on a on-going spiritual quest when I was a child for the "correct" religion and has been invoved in some really odd ...actually let me phrase this correctly really really odd religions. As a result, I was sent to multiple Religious Summer Camps and while I respect the different organizations' desire to find "the way" but I dont consider myself affiliated with any of them.

Secondly, ...Since finding meaning in life seems to be a universal concept and... since a curious mind tends to want more information before making a decision and... since generally you go to a religion to help explore this... I understand why anyone might attend functions or attend a meeting or even participate for a while to see what the religion is about before making a decision. I do not think that an INTEREST signifies belief. Which is what being religious is right? Belief?

As my arguement is : One's Belief is what ultimately characterizes whether someone is a member of a religion (yes I am aware of the vast number of people that claim to be something but dont believe in it...I'm going to ignore them for the sake of a simpler arguement)
and since Belief is a personal experience it cannot been gauged accurately by an outside source.

Which is a fancy way of saying...No one Knows but Neil.

Honestly it doesn't matter much to me.
I kind of go by the "judge yee by the deeds of man" thingy. Since he writes books that inspire and add magic and beauty, and seems to value ideals like friendship and humanity and forgiveness, and can be gracious and generous with his time and person at endless ( probably to him boring) public events then he's okay by me. If he wants to believe in the "Flying Spagetti Monster" and be a Pastafarian I am fine with that.

Til he says what he is I leave it open for him to choose.

I am by the way devoutly...
"Religious with no Religion"
As the world seems pretty complicated and profound to be an accident to me, but as far as I can tell no one has gotten the explanation of why precisely right yet.

Which my roomate has just informed me is very close to a more positive spin on Voltaire's belief...so that makes me some kind of a Contemporary Voltairist?....

Found this on a Scientology message board called Operation Clambake:

"Neil is in good standing with the Church.

His wife Mary completed auditing as recently as 2002"

"Neil Gaiman appears to be the son of David Gaiman, one of the most important figures in Scientology in the 1960s-early 80s. Neil himself was declared a Supressive Person (SP - the equivalent of an excommunication) in 1983. Given that L. Ron Hubbard said SPs could be tricked, lied to, hurt, stolen from etc by any member of Scientology, it would seem he is no longer a member. He politely deflects all questions on the matter, and from time to time people speculate if that is because he is afraid of revenge from the COS or to keep family peace. He has several times said he has no particular religious beliefs, and this would seem to include Scientology.

Ocassionally people speculate as to wheter Neil is indeed the son of that David Gaiman. It seems he is, as it's unlikely there would be two Neil Gaimans, sons of David Gaimans, and the same age.

Again, in the "Report to Members of Parliament", there is a reprint of an interview with seven-year-old Neil Gaiman conducted by the BBC's "World at Weekend" programme in August 1968. In this, Neil explains that Scientology is "an applied philosophy dealing with the study of knowledge", that he has passed Grade I - "Problems Release" - on the way to Clear and has just finished Engrams. The Scientologists' comment is: 'Of course Scientologists educate their children in their religious philosophy. There are children's courses attended by children with parents' signed consent'.

So the short answer is: he was raised a Scientologist, left the church, declared an SP, and still seems to maintain relationships with his family. All of which seems to me to be to his credit."

I love that he was so well spoken in an interview with the BBC at the age of seven! That's really impressive to me.

well...i guess his history proves that Scientologists can also raise very creative and intelligent children.

I think what Lady Jane said sums up pretty much what is known about Neil and Scientology. I want to add to this that I've read the recent Rolling Stones (uhm, as recent as a few months ago) article on the Scientology and among other things it said that they were pretty strict on things like homosexuality and even masturbation, which was kind of news to me. I mean a bit surprising for some reason. But anyway, having read Neil's blog frequently for quite a while I can say that he shows none of their narrow-mindedness concerning such subjects and he's even outspoken about it. I don't know anything more specific, but nothing of what he said in the last few years suggests that he still thinks in some common terms with the cult. He does mention being Jewish once in a while and he also has a lot of respect for other people's beliefs.

And I want to add that a person's religion means nothing in itself. I mean, it doesn't give any kind of indication of what the person is like, you have to find out the specifics of their beliefs to know how they influence their lives. For example, I have Muslim friends who have no problem drinking alcohol or even eating pork (though the latter seems accepted with more difficulty than the former for some reason).

quote:

Originally posted by lafayettegirl:
What religion is Neil Gaiman?

"I believe we owe it to each other to tell stories. It's as close to a credo as I have or will, I suspect, ever get."
--Neil Gaiman, in introduction to "Locks" in Fragile Things, page xxii in US edition.

Then the actual poem, "Locks", begins "We owe it to each other to tell stories\ as people simply, not as father and daughter." (F.T.- USed., page 177)

--Aleta

What's really interesting is that Neil is friends with Penn Jillette who is an acknowledged atheist and J. Michael Straczynski is also an atheist. I'm not saying that associating with anyone who has stated their beliefs one way or the other automatically means that you also subscribe to the same beliefs. It's just an observation on my part. I am glad that, no matter what Neil believes or doesn't, he seems to be open and tolerant of other beliefs.

Heck, I'm married to an agnostic who tends to atheism, one sister-in-law is a practicing Lutheran married to a Lutheran minister, and the other is a Catholic. And I am none of those things.

There are indeed beliefs that make it hard to associate with others who don't hold those beliefs, but no one has suggested that Neil subscribes to any of them.

- Cho

I think he said in one of the interviews with Hy Bender in The Sandman companion that growing up as a Jew, he felt kind of detached from his religion and saw it all as story material - that's what I *think* he was saying. He didn't say it like it was a bad thing either, he seemed very grateful for that. I wish I could remember exactly where he said it, but I just flicked through the Companion and couldn't find it straight away.

I live in the country where are an 90% of people are christians (orthodox is majority, but theres a catolics and protestants also). When I was reading Gaiman's books, I have a feeling that he is also christian.

I don't know which religion he prefers, but his work are very conected to the basic christian values and I like it very much.