I really, really appreciate Gaiman's representations of lesbian relationships in his work. His gay female characters are incredibly well-written... And I like that, unlike many authors, he writes them as PEOPLE instead of just stock-character dykes.

However, I thought it was unusual that there are few (if any?) gay male characters in the Gaiman books that I've read. I could be totally forgetting some, but the only gay male I can think of who I've seen in Gaiman's work is Nuala's brother (I forgot his name and I could be mis-remembering the character)... Haha, Lucifer totally triggered my gaydar, too, but I was wrong about that. d=

I don't mean to be nitpicky, but it just seems like there's an imbalance. Gaiman really seems to love writing about gay chicks, but not gay guys... I have to be jusft a little suspicious that there could be a degree of fetishism slipping into his work. (I have yet to understand why straight guys are so fascinated by lesbians)...

Anywho, I was wondering if anyone had any input. Again, I don't want this thread to sound antagonistic and I'm not accusing Gaiman of being a homophobe or anything.

Much Love,
Juniper

Oh yeah, and I guess I should add (in case there are any gay male characters in the books by Gaiman that I just haven't read yet)... The books I've read by Gaiman are American Gods, Stardust, the Sandman series, Coraline, Wolves in the Walls, and I'm in the middle of Anansi Boys.

We sorta-kinda-not-really had a similiar topic not too long ago taking the question from a different angle here. You might want to take a look to see if that answers any of the questions you've got rolling around in your head.

Yeah, I'd already seen that post, and it clarified some of my questions, but this is a slightly different topic. (=

Okay. Just wanted to make sure you'd seen it.

As mentioned in the other thread, there's Wanda the transsexual from Sandman. I haven't read "smoke and mirrors" or any of the short stories in forever, so there might be something in there.

quote:

Originally posted by Juniper87:
I really, really appreciate Gaiman's representations of lesbian relationships in his work. His gay female characters are incredibly well-written... And I like that, unlike many authors, he writes them as PEOPLE instead of just stock-character dykes.

However, I thought it was unusual that there are few (if any?) gay male characters in the Gaiman books that I've read. I could be totally forgetting some, but the only gay male I can think of who I've seen in Gaiman's work is Nuala's brother (I forgot his name and I could be mis-remembering the character)... Haha, Lucifer totally triggered my gaydar, too, but I was wrong about that. d=
<snip>

Just so I know exactly what you're talking about, how many lesbian characters are you including in your count? And how peripheral can a character be and still count? That will save some time and trouble in responding. Thanks.

(why do I feel compelled to answer these questions? why? why why why why why why why why why?)

By my personal definition, Wanda isn't a gay male, she's a straight female who happens to have a penis. But I get that most people don't use gender definitions that liberally. (=

Monkgrr... I don't have a real count or anything, but I was thinking Donna, Judy, Foxglove, Hazel, and Sam Black Crow and her girlfriend...

Also, Monk, not to augment a confrontation so soon after joining the boards, but is there really a need to be so antagonistic about your *own* choice to respond to this thread?

So, to make sure I properly understand the question, you'd like for us to tell you why Neil doesn't create as many male gay characters as he does female?

Honestly, I don't think anyone will be able to answer that question *other* than Neil, so perhaps it might be best if you ask him yourself.

No, I wasn't asking for you to explain it to me. I was asking if anyone else had similar observations or if there were characters I was unaware of.

quote:

Originally posted by Juniper87:
By my personal definition, Wanda isn't a gay male, she's a straight female who happens to have a penis. But I get that most people don't use gender definitions that liberally. (=

Monkgrr... I don't have a real count or anything, but I was thinking Donna, Judy, Foxglove, Hazel, and Sam Black Crow and her girlfriend...

Also, Monk, not to augment a confrontation so soon after joining the boards, but is there really a need to be so antagonistic about your *own* choice to respond to this thread?

Antagonistic? Don't see it, but sorry if it came across that way. I just want to make sure I understand your question specifically so I don't waste your time.

Male characters that are gay . . . hmmm . . .

Since I haven't read everything and some of what I've read was read years ago, no doubt I'm missing some, but here's what I can recall. There's Hal the landlord (Sandman "The Doll's House" and again in "The Kindly Ones"). Paul McGuire and Alex Burgess from "Preludes and Nocturnes" and more specifically "The Kindly Ones" (and a bit of "The Wake"). There's also Salim and the ifrit in "American Gods." Some very interesting implications in "Murder Mysteries" and in "Changes." And I would wait until "Fragile Things" is out to make a more complete count.

So if there is any outnumbering, it isn't by much.

And since I'm already being antagonistic and all -- I think the whole idea behind this thread and the one that AmyMod linked to earlier (and some others we've had in the past) is bizarre. Neil Gaiman doesn't have any sort of social responsibility to write anything specifically for anyone/group of people or some sort of strange moral burden to be "fair" to either gay men or gay women or non-beautiful women or cute men or whatever else. He should write the truth as he sees it as an artist. Doing so doesn't indicate homophobia or weird hetero fetishes or anything strange or wrong. Instead, his writing is testament to a particular, individual artistic vision being expressed through amazing stories and fantastic writing.

I guess I just totally overlooked the characters you mentioned... Thanks for pointing them out to me--that's esentially the kind of response I was looking for. I didn't mean to sound so bitter earlier, but I just didn't think "(why do I feel compelled to answer these questions? why? why why why why why why why why why?)" was a very friendly response.

I absolutely agree with you that Gaiman doesn't have an obligation to represent every minority out there, I'm just always interested in analzying any writer's motivations and subconcious ideas. I didn't intend to be accusatory toward you or Neil.

Peace,
Juniper

quote:

Originally posted by Juniper87:
I guess I just totally overlooked the characters you mentioned... Thanks for pointing them out to me--that's esentially the kind of response I was looking for. I didn't mean to sound so bitter earlier, but I just didn't think "(why do I feel compelled to answer these questions? why? why why why why why why why why why?)" was a very friendly response.

I absolutely agree with you that Gaiman doesn't have an obligation to represent every minority out there, I'm just always interested in analzying any writer's motivations and subconcious ideas. I didn't intend to be accusatory toward you or Neil.

Peace,
Juniper

Oh, sorry, Juniper, the "why why why" thing is more a reflection on myself. When there are questions about NG's writing, I can't help but answer. Even if I don't have time and should be doing other things like working or taking care of family obligations or whatever. I find myself stopping everything and searching shelves for books and rereading stuff and generally spending time on something that I hadn't planned to spend time on. But I just can't keep away from them! And I don't know why . . .

quote:

Originally posted by Juniper87:
I don't have a real count or anything, but I was thinking Donna, Judy, Foxglove, Hazel, and Sam Black Crow and her girlfriend...

Donna and Foxglove are the same character. She changed her name after Judy died and stuff.
In other books... there's this story in Smoke and Mirrors (British edition), "Keepsakes and treasures" that also features a gay male.

I never really thought about it. See, if he wrote a lot of lesbian characters, who were beautiful and sexy, and ha dall this sex all the time, then I might think there's a "fetishist" bias, as you said (ie, Anne Rice and her gay vampires, enough already!). But he writes, as you said, just characters, people. Some happen to be gay, some lesbian, some transexual or travestites some nothing at all... So even if he'd never even mentioned a male gay character I still wouldn't even notice, I think.

>> Paul McGuire and Alex Burgess <<

Yes, that's an important pair. I was very struck by the sweet sadness of the scenes where Rose is visiting Fawney Rig and Paul shows her Alex, in his decades-long sleep. Paul's devotion after all that time is very impressive.

Speaking of Rose, the "Spider Women" (Zelda and Chantal) are missing from the list of gay female characters.

- Cho

There is also the brief appearence of Jack Holdaway in The Kindly Ones, who Rose sleeps with.

I think that was all see the things that we want to in Gaiman's work. I was always astounded by the number of gay male characters, but I suppose I noticed them because I was looking for them. The fact that the ifrit story in AG exists always astounded me, just because you never expect gay sex scenes from straight male writers.

quote:

Originally posted by When_lingers:
There is also the brief appearence of Jack Holdaway in The Kindly Ones, who Rose sleeps with.

The solicitor? He's gay?? How did I miss that? I know Rose phones him and another person answers, or maybe he does but there's someone else with him, and she asks "Is there someone else you should have told me about?", but I never thought it was anothe rman...Or did I miss something else entirely...
wow...

Also, there's always Desire and its pansexuality, if that counts.

I have to say, the number of gay men Neil writes is kind of irrelevant. Whether or not they're there, when they are there they are well rounded and not just stock queens. You go on both ends of the spectrum, from Burgess and McGuire to Hal. I also loved how Burgess and McGuire's relationship was so loving and faithful. It's not presented as weird or bizarre. It's just there. I appreciated that he was showing that there are gay older folk - I think people forget that.

That said, I think we're reading too much into Neil's work by making all these conjectures based on his character's sexual preferences. I think he really just does what suits the story.

quote:

Originally posted by cloverheart:

quote:

Originally posted by When_lingers:
There is also the brief appearence of Jack Holdaway in The Kindly Ones, who Rose sleeps with.

The solicitor? He's gay?? How did I miss that? I know Rose phones him and another person answers, or maybe he does but there's someone else with him, and she asks "Is there someone else you should have told me about?", but I never thought it was anothe rman...Or did I miss something else entirely...
wow...

Near the end of 'Kindly Ones' just before Alex wakes up there's a panal of the nurse reading the newspaper which has the headline 'Local solicitor commits suicide when gay lover walks out', or something like that. In 'The Wake' Paul and Alex mention Jack's funeral.

Wow... I think I totally missed that... I just thought he was married...
That's so cool, that's why I love the sandman so much! (Er, for the continuous discovery of new stuff, that is, not because of characters killing themselves after their gay lovers walked out on them coz they slept with a someone else from the opposite sex...)
Thanks for pointing that out!