Um, I loved Stranger when I first read it, but upon later reads, it was rather simple. I rather liked "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" and John Varley did a homage to Heinlein called "Steel Beach" which you guys should check out.

The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress is one of my favourite books, even though I'm annoyed at Heinlein for killing off Mike. So unfair. He hadn't gotten all those jokes graded..

I think I agree that later Heinlein is poor, but I rarely look at published dates. I recently reread Have Space Suit, Will Travel, and it's Sci Fi with a definate 50's base. Soda fountains, home built televisions, low low prices. And looking at my copy it was first published in 1958. I have no idea why I just typed that. It's so going nowhere.

Nice to see Job get a mention too. So I'd like to give a shout out to The Puppet Masters. Blah blah ramble on

quote:

Originally posted by Uskglass:
When it comes to Heinlein, I have one rule: Don't read anything written after 1975.

There are different expectations for early vs late Heinlein, but I'll read anything the old man wrote, just in case.

For instance, yeah, The Number of the Beast is bad, but there's a great what-if premise and a great rationale. When you hit a gyroscope, it redirects the force in another direction. What happens if you hit a gyroscope simultaneously on all 3 spatial axes? In the story, the gyroscope disappears, it pops into another plane of existence. It's proposed that there are 3 time axes, just as there are 3 spatial axes, so the possible permutations, the number of possible dimensions and timelines, are 6 raised to the power of 6 raised to the power of 6. The 666 in Revelation is a mistranslation, those are exponents.

Nomber of the Beast opened the door to the playground of late Heinlein; all stories are real, they have realms somewhere in the multiverse. So you can go visit the Cowardly Lion, or Sherlock Holmes, or Lewis Carroll, or Isaac Asimov.

The Moon is A Harsh Mistress spoiler [Mike fans, fear not. The late Heinlein cast went back in time and saved Mike from oblivion.]

quote:

Originally posted by ZoneSeek:


The Moon is A Harsh Mistress spoiler [Mike fans, fear not. The late Heinlein cast went back in time and saved Mike from oblivion.]

Oh yeah, The Cat Who Walked Through Walls (I think). But it was unsatisfactory. Felt like a sop to those who'd objected to the end of Mike in TMIAHM.

Ugh, The Cat Who Walked Through Walls. I felt like I was reading Heinlein writing through advanced senility. Bring everyone back!! Whoooooo!

My favourate Heinlein books are:

-Tunnel in the Sky
-The door into Summer
-About the first 2/3rds of Stranger in a Strange Land


I read most of 'the lives and loves of maureen long' and my god, what a waste of my time!!!

The sex, though titilating at first (hey, come on!! She gets her knickers down at every opertunity!!), get's really boring and I gave up when she was explaining, at length, about the reasons why her son and daughter shouldn't get married but can still have sex.


I much prefered the early short stories, the door into summer was just great, and tunnel in the sky.....man, fantastic!! I loved the whole engineering side to his books, and the whole 'here's how you'd do it' kind of feel that they have. The charactors arn't much to go for, but that's not really why i read the books, it's more for the plot and stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by Uskglass:
I liked Revolt in 2100.

When it comes to Heinlein, I have one rule: Don't read anything written after 1975.

Yes, I realised that only too late!!

quote:

Originally posted by St.Barbarella:
the door into summer was just great, and tunnel in the sky.....man, fantastic!! I loved the whole engineering side to his books, and the whole 'here's how you'd do it' kind of feel that they have. The charactors arn't much to go for, but that's not really why i read the books, it's more for the plot and stuff.

Absolutely agree. Door Into Summer is a damn good one. And what you're saying about engineering is so true. Most of his leads tend to be engineers of one sort or another, and that absolutely makes sense in the worlds he writes in (The lead in Job is a priest, which is absolutely right for that story). I would say though that I find most of his characters to be well drawn, in the better books that is, but part of that is the asttention to detail as to what it is they do. You'll get details from the narrator which make it seem that they do know what they're talking about. And also you get their incomprehension too, which I like. I 'm not a fan of the omnipotent first person. His characters don't have all the information so you get the journey with them as they find the stuff out. And that's not always the complete info. I'll try and make sense tomorrow for today is past hope.

I agree Cavenagh.

Wasn't Heinlein suposed to be an engineer anyway?

I just loved that whole thing in 'Door into summer' about how he designed the cleaning robots, the ideas behind it. I didn't even know I was going to be reading a book on engineering, but it doesn't matter!!

Do you know of any of his other books that have the same feel as 'Door into Summer'?

My flatmate is a big Heinlein fan, but he mostly has the larger later books that I don't feel up for at the moment!!


And although I'm not much of a cat person, I do love the charactisations of the cats, meowing and speaking at the same time!

*****SPOILERS LIKE A MOFO*****
I thought it was necessary that Mike die. I get so frustrated with the idea that fan-fondness for characters should preempt them being killed when the story demands it. And had anyone else ever cried over a fictional computer? Or nearly?

Time Enough For Love is one of three books that has actually made me cry, along with Sandman and Seabiscuit. That poor goddamn horse...But the moment in Time Enough For Love when *I already warned you about the spoilers, here comes another one* Dora dies had tears streaming down my cheeks.

As for Heinlein's later books, yeah, he did seem to turn into a bit of a sex-crazed Senile old man. But Friday is one of the best spy thrillers ever, and I don't care what people say.

The last one of these conversations turned into me arguing against what seemed like the entire board that Stranger in a Strange Land, my favoritestest book of all time in mankind's history, was not homophobic. Anyone want to go there? Again?

wait... so i'd get to argue against (almost) the entire board to defend a controversial author and one of my favorite books? sign me up! I'd have to reread it (since its been ages), but i'm pretty sure the homophobia came from the phrase 'misguided men', which could mean any number of things

oh, and for the record 'Moon is a Harsh Mistress' is probably my fave Heinlien book. i also love the short story about the two teenagers doing freefall practice and falling in love (its one of the 'future history' ones), 'Job: A Comedy of Justice' (think the premise of Sliders with a crazy religious twist), and 'Starship Troopers' (not sure about the politics, but i loved the mecha).

when i get some time i'll buy up his paperbacks again and reread them. left them in the States, alas

As I recall, the teenagers flying and falling in love story was called The Menace From Earth and it was brilliant. My favorite is Stranger in a Strange Land, although I really love Time Enough for Love.

I'm currently stuggling through the 2nd part of Time enough for love...

I'm not very far into it...but it seems very short on plot so far and heavy handed with the Polyamourous as the accepted norm kinda stuff...

I do hope it gets better...it does right?

Have you gotten to the "Tale of the Adopted Daughter" yet? That's the one that made me cry. And I like the polyamorous stuff, personally, even if I don't always agree with it, because it challenges me and makes me decide whether I agree with it. It goes all through the book, but there is a lot of other stuff going on as well. Finish it! If you don't like it, well, that's just your opinion, which in this case would be wrong as it would disagree with my opinion, which is always correct.

Is this homophobic?

quote:

Jill wasn't sure how far this went; she had explained homosexuality, after Mike had read about it and failed to grok- and had given him rules for avoiding passes; she knew that Mike, pretty as he was, would attract such. He had followed her advice and had made his face more masuline, instead of the androgynous beauty he had had. But Jill was not sure Mike would refuse a pass, say, from Duke- fortunately Mike's male water brothers were decidedly masculine, just as his others were very female women. Jill suspected that Mike woulld grok a "wrongness" in the poor in-betweeners anyhow- they would never be offered water.

I do remember that that passage bothered me. Men have to be masculine and women have to be feminine? And what do masculine and feminine mean, really? Dominant/submissive?

Those are all things that Jill thinks, is an answer there, and thinks before she becomes educated in Martian ways and being inclusive anyway. But I've already fought this fight, so if anyone else wants a turn, I know there are better arguments as I had them in mind the other day, and have forgotten them.

Writers talk about how Theodore Sturgeon once had writer's block, and Heinlein gave him a list of story ideas. I remember one, it's winter, a stray kitten is freezing and wanders into a church on Christmas Eve. That's maybe the soppiest thing I ever heard, and in Sturgeon's hands it would be deadly. I hope he wrote it.