quote:

Originally posted by The Boyâ„¢:
I don't know about the magic. I think there should be another category name if the setting allows for outright magic.

One of the key features of the real late-Victorian age was a faith in science and reason and the confidence that science would bring a utopia. Steampunk and retrofuture genres try to evoke that feeling.

Of course the "punk" half of the setting knows that the utopian potential of tech is not true so steampunk (and cyberpunk) can be dystopian. Unlike cyberpunk, though, the characters in steampunk aren't as jaded. They still have the optimism of the pre-20th century Enlightenment.

If you allow for magic, though, you change the tone subtly by diverting focus from the science and reason, which was a key to the culture and driving force of the age.

On the other hand, it is possible to create an alternate science. Age of Unreason and Fullmetal Alchemist assumes that alchemy works instead of standard physics. Space:1889 assumes that the luminiferous aether was real.

So how would Mieville's stuff fit into this? I have a hard time classifying Perdido Street Station as something other than steampunk and it uses outright magic (thaumaturgy), although it seems to also be depicted by science IIRC. It's also not set on earth, much less the Victorian period and his characters are all pretty jaded, definitely not optimistic. Yet, I can't help but think of it on a lot of levels as Steampunk, although I suppose it's fantasy, too.

Exactly!

I'm sorry, but I've read through this thread with a mounting 'Eddie Campbell'-style horror of all definitions and cant' resist ranting, so please excuse me.

But please, just stop it! All of the books so far mentioned are *steampunk*, whether you like them or not. Of course steampunk can involve magic! A technology which involves steam and Victoriana is pretty magical to start with!

And steampunk can be funny too. Like 'The League of Extroadinary Gentlemen' (which deffinately has it's moments of magic) and Paul Di Fillipo's 'The Steampunk Trilogy' which is just hillarious, a patchwork collage of Victorian history, literary jokes, and sureal nonsense. Look! It even calls itself 'steampunk', but many of you who posted above would probably want to discount it because it doesn't fit your narrow deffinitions. Stop spitting hairs and just enjoy the books!

Sorry if I've just upset anyone here, but a deffinition of Steampunk which doesn't include China Mieville, K.J. Bishop, 'Anno Dracula', and Colin Greenland's wonderful 'Harm's Way' is just wrong! It's a very elastic term (when you get down to it, most literary terms tend to cover up big discrepancies, which is probably why they're such fun to argue about!), and I think Wikipedia has got it about right there.

And, just to include a final tangent, in his review of Pynchon's latest novel in The Gaurdian Michael Moorcock used 'Steampunk' to describe Pynchon's work, and I'll bet none of us here would have thought of *his* work as steampunk!

Steampunk is a label. An undefined label is as useful as a cardboard knife. Being nitpicky, Mieville would be New Weird rather than steampunk, and that label came about because critics did not know how to define his work (where Bishop and Vandermeer fit in as well).

A label has nothing to do with quality and your personal liking of a work. I enjoyed Perdido, no matter what label it has.

Steampunk was an offshoot of the cyberpunk label, and I would say that right now it is as dead as cyberpunk, mainly because writers and readers want something different.

I tend to mistrust wikipedia. Rule of the loudest.

I'm reading Perdido Street Station right now and it's good.

Personally, I think the reason the category of "steampunk" is dead is because no one ever quite created a truly great novel with that theme before it evolved beyond its roots.

quote:

Originally posted by feste:
But please, just stop it! All of the books so far mentioned are *steampunk*, whether you like them or not. Of course steampunk can involve magic! A technology which involves steam and Victoriana is pretty magical to start with!

Liking or disliking has nothing to do with it. I *loved* Howl's Moving Castle. But it's fantasy, not steampunk.
Technology which involves steam is just that: technology. There's nothing magic about it, regardless of what time period it's in.

This topic turned into one of those "real-SF vs. sciffy" arguments that I hate participating in.

Originally, I think steampunk was really a way to describe the application of the same sort of literary approach that distinguished the "cyberpunk" novels to period novels. A lot of that had to do with accelerating technical advances - primarily electronic, the "cyber" - clashing or meshing violently with the everyday and long-lived urges of the human animal - the "punk." In the case of the Victorian era, steam represents that technological acceleration, but I suppose alchemy or alternative theories of anatomy and bilogy (as expressed in FRANKENSTEIN) could serve the same purpose for an even earlier period.

Whether its "steampunk", "magicpunk" or even "Ancient Egyptpunk" (Pyramidpunk?), I think that the defining factor is not the alternative view or speculative approach the novels take to history, but primarily the genre's "attitude" lies in the ways that the emotional and very human lives of the characters respond to a world where the "tools" seem to be evolving a life and spiritual reality of their own.

Well, this will probably teach me not to post late at night when I really should have thought about what I wanted to say. Several of your criticisms of what I wrote are perfectly fair. Of course liking and disliking are nothing to do with it. I think what I was initially just a bit irritated by was what seemed to be nitpicking which was focused on policing the borders of what is for me, a fairly loose definition. I didn’t mean to suggest that it should be a label which is undefined, rather that labels are most useful when they are seen to be flexible and porous rather than narrow and exclusive. Also, from my own experience, I increasingly tend to think that any label which we try and apply to works of literature can often come apart and be shown to be covering all sorts of unacknowledged assumptions when we start to pick it apart and examine it closely.

And I wasn’t defending the whole of wikipedia! I was only saying that I was in broad agreement with one article which gave a fairly broad definition of this single term. That’s all! If it is just the loudest voices winning out, then at least in this case the loudest voices seem to have some idea of what they’re talking about!

I think I’ve become increasing interested in ‘steampunk’ over the last few years particularly, and I think that what made me most want to revise my initial thoughts about what Steampunk is was reading Paul Di Fillipo’s ‘Steampunk Trilogy’. I mean, as I said, it’s got the label right there, but, well, it’s just silly. For those of you who haven’t read it, the first story has Queen Victoria being replaced by a sext human/newt hybrid who’s been created by Dr Frankenstein-like technology. Well, that seemed to fit…just. The second story had 19th century imperialism and the Cthulu mythos, and Herman Melville turning up just to say, “Call me, Herman!” and just got sillier and sillier. And the last had a meeting between Emily Dickinson and Walt Whitman and weird psychedelia. *This* was steampunk? It didn’t seem to fit, because, like many I suspect, I was thinking of The Difference Engine as the working definition of what ‘steampunk’ should be.

But it’s not. It was a term coined originally to describe the some of the work of James Blaylock, K.W. Jeter, and Tim Powers. That’s not just what Wikipedia says, that’s also what John Clute’s ‘Encyclopedia of Science Fiction’ says, and I hope we can consider that an authoritive source, even if it is now a bit out of date. ‘The Encylopedia of Fantasy’ also has an entry on it, and also includes the related term ‘Gaslight Romance’ which I suppose might be useful for those of you who want to exile magic from Steampunk (it’s also the cooler name I think!). It’s deriving from the term ‘Cyberpunk’ is probably a bit misleading then, and not helped by Gibson and Sterling, the 2 big cyberpunk names, then going and writing ‘The Difference Engine’.

Both ‘steampunk’ and ‘gaslight romance’ for me are related forms of recursive fiction which focus not just on Victorian technology and the nineteenth century city, but on ‘Victorianess’. It comes out of an obsession with the ‘thinginess’ of an imagined Victorian past which as much an imagined past. The Encylopedia of SF very sensibly for me locates the Steampunk image of the Victorian city in the work of Charles Dickens, whose clotted style seems perfect for evoking the dirt and ‘thinginess’ of the Victorian city and its responses to a rapidly industrialising 19-century world: “congested, pullulating 19th-century landscapes [which]…were the foul rag-and-bone shop of history from which the technological world…originally sprang. Somewhere behind most steampunk visions are filthy coal heaps or driving pistons.” Now, if that last sentence isn’t evoked by China Meiville’s work, then what is it evoking?

Yes, of course Melville belongs with The New Weird. From what I’ve read he’s one of the few who seems to relish that particular label! But how would we define *that* label? For me it seems to be a particularly patchwork one which exists in the intersections of a number of different genres (like slipstream). So I wouldn’t call Jeff Vandermeer or Jeffrey Ford Steampunk, but I would say it’s a label that can be profitably applied to K.J. Bishop and China Mieville. But other labels can equally apply. Of all the writers associated with the New Weird that I’ve encountered China Mieville would seem to be the most genre bound. His work draws on horror, fantasy, 19th century decadence, political dystopia, steampunk, even (in The Iron Council) the western. What I was failing to say in my initial rant above was that I don’t think labels are much use in and of themselves. We become like trainspotters, policing the borders of something which is of interest to only a minority. They’re much more interesting when used as tools. And it depends on what critical narrative we want to say surely? So, Frankenstein for example, which fits into the narrative of the 19th-century novel is also more properly considered as one of the best of the gothics. But it’s also the very first science fiction novel. At least that’s the story Brian Aldiss wanted to tell in ‘Billion/Trillion Year Spree’. It could even, in fact, yes, I’m going to claim it now as a proto-steampunk novel (because that’s the story I want to tell!).

A particular work doesn’t have to fit just one label. Of course Howl’s Moving Castle is fantasy. But that ‘moving castle’ is definitely an ‘element’ of steampunk. And the vaguely 19th/early 20th century setting also locates it in the steampunk label. China Mieville also fits in a lot of pigeon holes. He’s also (and I don’t wish to appear patronising here, but perhaps this isn’t so obvious to an American audience), a significant London writer. When he’s not setting his fiction in Bas-Lag, he sets his work in London (or beneath it!). ‘King Rat’ even carried on its inside cover a blurb from Iain Sinclair (at least the British edition did), one of *the* modern London writers, and the title of his newest novel is of course ‘Un-Lun-Dun’. But London also underlies New Crobuzon, or at least it’s London’s19th century Dickensian avatar does. And practically everyone who lives seems to talk like a working class Londoner!

I think where I differ from some who have contributed to this topic is that I don’t regard steampunk as a matter of content (which to me seems rather limiting), but rather as a matter of recursive nostalgic style. What I take from the ‘punk’ element of the label is a sense of cultural bricolage (for me, just as important as ‘punk’s joyful nihilism and attitudes towards authority). ‘Steampunk’ is an assemblage of many disparate cultural elements.

quote:
"One of the key features of the real late-Victorian age was a faith in science and reason and the confidence that science would bring a utopia. Steampunk and retrofuture genres try to evoke that feeling.

...If you allow for magic, though, you change the tone subtly by diverting focus from the science and reason, which was a key to the culture and driving force of the age."

But the real late-Victorian age was not just one which placed its faith in rationality and science, it was also one which was racked which considerable doubt and religious crisis stemming particularly from Darwin. Many felt under threat from that very same science (Matthew Arnold’s poem ‘Dover Beach’ is one that usually gets trotted out to show this), which also lead to an increase in spiritualism, occultism, theosophy, in a word, magic. Yes, of course steam driven technology is “just that: technology”. But the way in which it is generally depicted in Steampunk is a kind of techno-fantasy. A steam driven computer is surely impossible and hence somewhat ‘magical’? (but then I guess most science fiction features technology which is ‘impossible’, so I probably am in danger of perpetuating a pointless ‘real SF vs. skiffy’ argument here if I’m not careful!).So in my view, Steampunk is most usefully sited on the intersection between Science-fiction and Fantasy. Hence, as has already been pointed put, some lean more towards science, whilst others lean much more towards magic. I think a definition of the label can be broad enough to encompass a fairly wide range of fiction.

I hope the above is at least a bit more constructive than my first post to this topic! I realise that I’ve just gone on far longer than was needed here (anyone who can’t be bothered to read the above has my sympathy!), but I haven’t posted much here and I hated to think I’d managed to put anyone’s back up. I really hate causing irritation to people, but when we can’t see each other I guess it’s easier to do without thinking. Also, ‘steampunk’ is something I’m really interested in and I think I’m still trying to argue out with myself what it usefully means!

I don't know if this quite qualifies as steampunk, but I really enjoyed The Five Fists of Science graphic novel.

I really liked the team up of Mark Twain and Nikola Tesla and the rivalry between Tesla and Edison.

quote:

But the real late-Victorian age was not just one which placed its faith in rationality and science, it was also one which was racked which considerable doubt and religious crisis stemming particularly from Darwin. Many felt under threat from that very same science (Matthew Arnold’s poem ‘Dover Beach’ is one that usually gets trotted out to show this), which also lead to an increase in spiritualism, occultism, theosophy, in a word, magic.

Actually, I'd love to see a story that recast the Victorian Era as one in which the claims of spiritualism and theosophy were true and real rather than criminal nonsense. With ghosts, faeries and elementals as common as gas and as observable as the effects of a cathode ray tube. Has such as story or novel been written?

quote:

Yes, of course steam driven technology is “just that: technology”. But the way in which it is generally depicted in Steampunk is a kind of techno-fantasy. A steam driven computer is surely impossible and hence somewhat ‘magical’? (but then I guess most science fiction features technology which is ‘impossible’, so I probably am in danger of perpetuating a pointless ‘real SF vs. skiffy’ argument here if I’m not careful!).So in my view, Steampunk is most usefully sited on the intersection between Science-fiction and Fantasy. Hence, as has already been pointed put, some lean more towards science, whilst others lean much more towards magic. I think a definition of the label can be broad enough to encompass a fairly wide range of fiction.

Though I agree with the general thrust, is a steam driven computer, for example, really impossible? If you've read the Cryptonomicon or its sequels in the Baroque Cycle, I think it's pretty believable that a computer is not dependent upon the electical microchip. That many different material mediums could accomplish the same primarily mathematical functions. Therefore, a steam engine composed of gears instead of transistors could accomplish computation similar to or the same as a modern computer. I think that originally Steampunk did derive from the idea of what if the information age actually began alongside the Industrial Revolution rather than after it. I think that Gibson's THE DIFFERENTIAL ENGINE certainly must be one of the first actual "Steampunk" novels, and in that sense, if it's desirable to have the clearest definition of the term in relation to a vast amount of alternative history speculative fiction, I think "steampunk" would have to be a sub-genre of "cyberpunk" and only applies to stories that have that modern viewpoint of information technologies set against a Victorian background.

quote:

Actually, I'd love to see a story that recast the Victorian Era as one in which the claims of spiritualism and theosophy were true and real rather than criminal nonsense. With ghosts, faeries and elementals as common as gas and as observable as the effects of a cathode ray tube. Has such as story or novel been written?

Check out Full Metal Alchemist-- there are two parallel worlds, one in which science has overcome magic and one in which magic/occultism has overcome science and it's all set in the industrial age. (I watched the movie and was quite confused because it is entwined with a very convoluted plot, so my recommendation would be start from the beginning of the series, either anime or manga).

Steamboy was good. I'm sure there's anime enthusiasts that will rip it apart, but I thought it worked.

I liked Steamboy! I usually dont like Anime though.

I like tha artwork in Steampunk mostly. Does anyone know where to find some good stuff online?

Not really Steampunk, but the Gaslight Justice League is still neat.

Oh thats cool!

This thread needs to be bigger. Much bigger. Anyone here on the Brass Goggles forums?

I have 2 comics. 1. Sebastian O and my fave
2. Steampunk. both from DC

images of an engine for inspiration.

Steam Trek!

quote:

Actually, I'd love to see a story that recast the Victorian Era as one in which the claims of spiritualism and theosophy were true and real rather than criminal nonsense. With ghosts, faeries and elementals as common as gas and as observable as the effects of a cathode ray tube. Has such as story or novel been written?

jack_and_ellis is a novel-in-progress on LiveJournal which you could try for that - its universe has two disciplines running in parallel: the Engineers who make machines from scratch, and the Creationists, who can make things appear temporarily from thin air.