Neil Gaiman www.NeilgaimanBoard.com www.NeilgaimanBoard.com The World's End Other Writers Movies that were better than the books tey were based on
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Administrator/Colporteur Member  |
Calling Tom Clancy's characters "cardboard" is a grave offense to cardboard, he is utterly incapable of writing interesting dialogue about anything other than military matters and politics and his word use, syntax and sentence structure are utilitarian, pedestrian and boring.
Please re-read my post. I've read a lot of Batman - a lot - and while some of it is very, very good, it's been my experience that there's at least as much of it that's horrible. Have you read Batman from the 50s through 70s? There's some good in there, but, well, I give you Bat-Baby. And, yes, millions of readers, particularly pubescent male comic book readers, can be wrong when it comes to judging the relative literary merit of comic books. It's hard to find any other reason that explains Rob Liefeld. I can't disagree with any statistics about the sales of bad Batman titles, but that's not the only yardstick of worth. And there's some excellent, excellent Batman stuff out there, don't get me wrong, but it's not all good and while Miller's The Dark Knight is awesome, I haven't read much else good that he's done for the Batman series. __________ AJGraeme "You see, I have a policy about honesty and ass-kicking: if you ask for it, I have to let you have it." -Taylor Mali "Science is the foot that kicks magic square in the nuts." -Scratch Fury |
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Administrator Member  |
LFT Is this a deliberate attempt to be insulting and to provoke an angry reply with a sideways jab at the British or are you really so uninformed about your military history? I suspect if you do a little more research you will find there are various military campaigns over the past 50 years where the British have been involved without any help from anyone, much less the US. There was this little issue we had in 1982 with a country called Argentina over British Sovereign nation called The Falkland Islands. The US did not help us in this conflict and in fact were even throwing parties for the Argentine ambassadors as war was breaking out. The Falkland Islands are still British. We managed to win that one, all on our own where the actually figting forces were concerned, and with no Northern American support at all. The only military campaign that the US have won without support of another nation was Hati...which was not really a campaign as a very very large nation crushing a tiny one with no military infrastructure. My question to you is, are you historically unaware and simply posting what you assume to be the case, or are you trying to be snide and insulting? ~ I prefer to live in a country that's small, and old, and where no one would ever have the NERVE to wear a cape in public, whether they could leap tall buildings in a single bound or not. trolls are like pigeons..keep feeding them and they keep coming back and shitting in your street. |
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Sittin' at the dock of the Bayeaux Tapestry Member  |
We kept out of Vietnam too.
Britain and America's interests tend to coincide - it's not simply a matter of cowtowing - we just tend to agree. Otherwise we'd be as intransigent as France.  "The other night I dreamed that King George VI was dead, and that Helen Hardinge had somehow or other got herself proclaimed Queen of England, and that I was detailed to go and tell her that it wouldn't do at all; and when I did this, all she said was, 'You see, I am really Queen Mary,' and I said, 'Oh very well' - words to that effect, and woke up. Last night I dreamed that Eisenhower came to stay with us, and he insisted on being put to sleep in the dog kennel, with a collar and chain about his neck." - Sir Alan Lascelles, 19 February 1980 |
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is part of the international oatmeal conspiracy Member  |
and just because i'm a pedantic historian: modern warfare can start anywhere from the 1800's on. that is the clasically defined period of modernity. you could even stretch that period back to early modern with the advent of a ballistics based military offensive and change of tactics.
so in that sense: War of 1812 - you were fighting the British, no supporting it as an offshoot of other wars in Europe. American Civil War - depending on which side you were, you were either supported or fighting support from the british Crimean? - don't think there was involvement Boer? - don't think there was involvement Not to mention all the wars/battles/countries conquered at the height of a thing called The British Empire. I also think there was also the slow appropriation of India, but its just a subcontinent, so maybe it doesn't count. WW1 - some support, mainly to industry, got in there at the end. but compared to the rest of the world or the main allied fighters - while the contribution was no doubt appreciated, the US were late entrants. The UK, at the time had half the population of the US at the time and had close to 1.7 million war dead where the US had around 200k. WW2 - oh lets not get into that one. Its just got MESS written all over it. the US was in longer than WW1 and I am under no illusions that they had a great contribution, its just the rest of the allies would have liked to have seen some solidarity in terms of military show of force in active combat pre 1942 is all. etc. etc. etc. as well. how about having a look at the US track record on UN contributions. i believe the words 'lack' 'deficit' 'not meeting' are used a lot in reports. I don't want to bring up more modern wars, because I'm fairly sure people will be pissed off at me for the above comments. High Ranking Official of the Realm of Unproductivity and Procrastination, Dean of the UUP, First Class member of the order of the Pineapple. scruffy ambulating reanimated hypothetical vegetarian leigonairre of the undead. ~ Cav Look, I've got a cape and a tendency towards violence. It does not make me a superhero! ~ Domitella |
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Sorry it took me so long to respond to this, but here: I've read Year One, which is supposed to be this greeat Batman reinvention, and I was mildly impressed with it but nothing beyond that. 300 I didn't enjoy at all. And I'm aware of Sin City being multiple stories. I've read The Long Halloween, Dark Victory, Year One, The Man Who Laughs, The Killing Joke, and have Black and White, Dark Knight Returns, and Arkham Asylum on the way. Out of all the ones I've read, I think NOLAN'S (yes, I meant Nolan's originally, not the original movies) are far superior to the comics. I'm pretty big on books too, but Nolan was just masterful in his portrayal. And just because Miller didn't write the original 300, doesn't mean his version should be any worse as a writer. Unless he wanted to be very dedicated and the original was bad, as happened to Snyder I believe, he could've changed it for the better. I think Miller has good ideas at many times and his dialogue is pretty good, but overall I feel his storytelling wasn't as strong as, say, Moore, or Gaiman. A cliche choice to make, but there it is. Again, sorry this took a while, and thanks Dweller for doing that little stick-up. :P _____ Et d'une chanson d'amour, la mer a bercé mon cœur pour la vie. ...I'm a man who enjoys his taffy. |
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rodentia extraordinarinus Member  |
word. And the fact that Clancy has done 'research' isn't a statement on how good his books are. Research makes a textbook, not a novel. ____________________________________________________ tiny ball of rage. hilarious, condensed rage - Snazz I never really lost my virginity... it just sort of eventually wore off - Chris Addison Um... I'm thinking that a lot of my internal conflict and malaise comes from the tension between the life I ACTUALLY want to live, and the stories I'd love to be able to tell? - T-Rex, qwantz.com |
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whew....okay, okay...batter-up!
i completely agree with the character representation you have of clancy dweller. and believe it or not their are people like this in the world.people devoid of personality and appear to be cardboard cut-outs.these people prosper in the armed forces.the armed forces are all about taking an individual and stripping them of all their excess baggage that have no use to them in a state of war or gets in the way of them following orders.these people are zombies to most other people but they are efficent in their task as designed.portraying military officials should be plausable if we are to believe what they are up to and help understand their decision making\following policy. for further information watch any military leader\officer debrief a situation or rather carry out their normanl affairs while awake. these people are robots,leaders of governments perfer this as to the loose cannon.sure their are loose cannons that work in the military but these people are far from high rank and duties for the most part. ROB LIEFELD...can't agree with you more about this guy,but....he started as an artist and held a gun to marvels head to let him create\write.to this day anybody that refers to liefeld as a writer should be taken out back and shot.his art was a breath of fresh air(except the antaomy of feet)this is why he swept in and swept out(re;feet). i don't recall saying there were no batman duds. i was just trying to understand the meaning of "very good verses very very bad" and how this could be considered equal amounts. the falkland islands is\was a joke i guess the punchline never appeared to those who found meaning in this "WAR" .why may i ask is the falkland island important to the U.K.? many have their belief about this issue but military leaders are closer to the anwser. HAITI was a disaster for the u.s. and haiti,funny thing is how both of these places are mentioned along with other governments that really did not help the places as much as helped surpress their own worries.the U.S. have no business involving themseves in haitian politics, even what they may be.it's only sad to see that the rest of the world can now only see this. as for the falkland islands what good came of this 'war'? and as for modern conventional warfare i'll give you the end of ww two and up.just saying classical definition of modern warfare is an oxymoron. and i hope that clears up all questions .... and further note i liked gosafard park on the silver screen. |
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dang it i knew i forgot something...
MR. FREEMAN , year one is\was not a reinvention of the cape crusader.who besides the all knowing internet gave you this information? this book if read in proper light along with reading miller interviews was about the untold transformation, in whole, of his first year out and about....dang it i gotta go,and i'm not done yet. |
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is part of the international oatmeal conspiracy Member |
why? statement and fact. you can't choose definitions of modernity dude. there's an established history here that you have to convince me of the contrary. High Ranking Official of the Realm of Unproductivity and Procrastination, Dean of the UUP, First Class member of the order of the Pineapple. scruffy ambulating reanimated hypothetical vegetarian leigonairre of the undead. ~ Cav Look, I've got a cape and a tendency towards violence. It does not make me a superhero! ~ Domitella |
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rodentia extraordinarinus Member |
First, you clearly know nothing about war, so maybe you shouldnt' eb commenting on it? Second, it was imprtant becasue there were people on those islands, just living their lives who had a right not to be invaded and ruled by another country. The good that came of it is that that was stopped. Also, please, for the love of all that is holy learn to type. It's making reading your posts even more painful. ____________________________________________________ tiny ball of rage. hilarious, condensed rage - Snazz I never really lost my virginity... it just sort of eventually wore off - Chris Addison Um... I'm thinking that a lot of my internal conflict and malaise comes from the tension between the life I ACTUALLY want to live, and the stories I'd love to be able to tell? - T-Rex, qwantz.com |
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Administrator Member |
Apart from the fact that this was not the point of the example, excuse me? a joke? please, tell me the punchline because i'm not laughing. I don't think anybody 'found meaning in this "WAR", a war is not something you 'find meaning in'.
It could be something to do with the fact there were/are British people living on that island who want to continuing living in their homes and also want to continue being British. It's called 'looking after your own' amongst other things, some people believe it is an important thing to do.
this sentence makes no sense at all. military leaders are closer to the answer?
Haiti may have been a disaster (in your clearly very uninformed opinion), but it is the only military battle the US have won without the support of other nations forces, that is all the example was about. To correct your assumption that the British only ever fight with the US because we somehow expect them to ...come to our rescue???
no, it doesn't clear up this question : My question to you is, are you historically unaware and simply posting what you assume to be the case, or are you trying to be snide and insulting? although it does lead me to believe the answer is both. ~ I prefer to live in a country that's small, and old, and where no one would ever have the NERVE to wear a cape in public, whether they could leap tall buildings in a single bound or not. trolls are like pigeons..keep feeding them and they keep coming back and shitting in your street. |
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Starving artist - well, not starving, but if you happen to have an extra biscuit lying around . . . Member  |
Yes, because aggressively invading a dominion of another sovereign nation is so very very funny. That would be why my cousin spent his son's first year of life sitting freezing his ass off in the South Atlantic, while his wife had to deal with her and the kid's health issues by herself. Because Argentina's invasion and continued aggressive stance towards a the Islanders requires a permanent military presence. We have an entire RAF regiment out there at all times, because of that war. One that could be used elsewhere, by the by. Its really hilarious. You could at least try not to demonstrate your utter historical ignorance quite so blatantly. ------------------------------ You are a Leprechaun. I'm not even sure what you are. Whiskey-soaked reports from your baffling Isle of Ire raise more questions than they answer. Are you a dwarf? Where's your pickax? If you're an elf, why don't you cobble? You'd think with all your gold, you could invest in some land, perhaps a title, and improve your station. Instead, you hide it in meteorologically-determined locations. You're getting killed on inflation, little friend! |
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I was always sure that, while not following it to the dot, it pretty much took Batman's origin story and gave it a new spin. I also meant reinvention in that it was kind of taking more of a canon Batman story and giving it a dark spin, like The Dark Knight Returns but in the canon series, or at least close to the canon series. Sorry, kind of tripping over words, I'm obviously not that Batman literate, it's before my time and I'm just going off what I can try to remember from online and the 8 or so books I have. But assuming you didn't just run out of time, I'll assume you agreed with the rest of my post, which makes me happy to not have to argue anymore on that. =D _____ Et d'une chanson d'amour, la mer a bercé mon cœur pour la vie. ...I'm a man who enjoys his taffy. |
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Administrator/Colporteur Member |
You've explained the military personnel, but what about the civillians? I'm not just talking the people who work for the government, but the innocents and passersby. They're just as flaccidly drawn. And Jack Ryan, for all that he's supposed to be a charismatic leader, has all the personality of a used sweatsock. He is charismatic because we're told he's charismatic.
I have only one general to go buy, a three-star Canadian general, highly decorated, had seen combat in Vietnam and had sent sons and daughters into harm's way on more than a few occasions, and while I'll grant that he wasn't exactly the most thrilling dinner companion at the start, I think that was mostly because I was there with his least favourite child - he's rather gay, musical-loving son. Once his other boys (there were four, all told, each one of them with shoulders broad enough to make me wince on behalf of Mrs. General) arrived, he became quite vivacious. That was his son's birthday party and much, much later that evening, once he'd had a few glasses of wine, he and I sat up by the fire for several hours while he told me jokes and stories that I can't repeat in front present company. Not because of national security but because they were utterly filthy.
I'm still waiting for Bill Sienkiewicz to come back to comics.
Ah, hopefully I cleared that up. It's really just based on my observation. Now, the best stuff - Dark Knight Returns, Arkham Asylum and so on - is among the best stuff in comics, so it makes up for a lot of Bat-Baby.
No less a joke than the invasion of Iraq. I mean, at least the British actually had an enemy as opposed to having to invent one beforehand and then foment one after.
I have no idea what you just said. Seriously. I'm fairly sure it's all in English, and I'm pretty sure the words are even in something resembling the correct order, but it's like reading something from a world politics Mad Lib.
Erm. Freedom? Think this bit got covered.
Okay, now I know you're American. No one else would have the cojones to say that the historical definition of modern warfare began when the American military began to be remotely relevant. __________ AJGraeme "You see, I have a policy about honesty and ass-kicking: if you ask for it, I have to let you have it." -Taylor Mali "Science is the foot that kicks magic square in the nuts." -Scratch Fury |
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always wears a tie - just not around his neck Member  |
I have to post something, because what I read above made me wonder where these robots where hiding during my twenty years in the military. The officer's I worked with where either smart or dumb, intresting or boring, neurotic or in control, in other words just as human as the rest of us, which really made battle scary. the books may portray them as cardboard cutouts or robots because that is what we would like to envision anyone who has to make the decisions that effect the lives of others but unfortunately for them and us they are just as human, which is why war is never a joke. my two cents Head of internal security of the Realm of Unproductivity and Procrastination, Catnip Master in the order of the Pineapple. |
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has been eaten by a grue. Member |
adding my two cents to Graffe's two cents. I know a lot of military men and women, and they are none of them remotely "cardboard." do you actually know anyone in the military, LFT?
~ We're just babies making up a game, if you're right. But...babies playing a game can make a play-world which licks your real world hollow. That's why I'm going to stand by the play-world. ~ Elite Special Force Procrastinator, trained in High Arts of Extended Coffee Breaks and Master Linguist of the Water Cooler Conversation |
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i'll make this as quick as possible,so that we can get on with our lifes.
falkland islands can not be spoken in the same sentence as the iraq.period. the islands were swiped by britian and for resources and stratigical holding (base of operations, see also vietnam and russia). to state that they were protecting british people in the area, one has to wonder what were they diong there in the first place?(see africa regarding farms and resources and the revolution of the natural inhabitants involving the battle cry 'let's get back our land') haiti was never considered a WAR ever, to the U.S. or for that matter the rest of the world outside your home.they stomped in there to make sure the next ruling party was U.S. friendly.look at the situation now,that leader that was 'elected' under U.S. occupation is gone, rather run out.the second time, thanks BILL CLINTON again,they decided to just help their 'elected' leader to scuttle of to a remote place in africa.the politics in haiti to this day are shakey but at least they can properly elect a leader without outside influence. let's admit something too.... india,china,south africa among other african territories,falkland islands, and too many more to list,were gained through greed of resources(money).never mind the people that were there first,clearly they were born to accept british rule.can't say america is far off this mark either but at least they swiped land from just three governments\people.i just dare the british to say' the nerve of americans to wage war with iraq for the control of oil'.the american government is a thug and they are not trying to fool anybody. but the british commit crimes at the white collar level with a 'who me?' look when people rear their head.the panama canal was dug and operated for fifty years until they gave the rights to the panama government.explain hong kong.that's all i'm saying. everybody misses BILL S. but he has original artwork always for sale,a few on heavymetals site. you know i was wondering what do you think of barry windsor-smith? i'm glad we agree about liefeld but you do know he was an artist and not a writer even though he tried. yeah i'm done with batman too not to be insultive but it's like this i can't talk batman with someone that owns 8 batman books. i don't know where all this 'you don't know history' is coming from.i just read alot of different views about history rather than rely on one source.i'm not sayiny that's what other people do around here . my great-grandfather was a general and my step uncle is a current general. oh yeah i'm not an american not that that should matter and to assume so is rude i think. let's also not use friends and family of the armed forces as fodder to justify a war ever please.i find that disrespectful.they joined on their free will for their own feelings.these people are far too special for this debate. |
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oh yeah , american military being relevant?
hmmm...i think that would of started at the revolutionary war. i will have to stand my ground on modern conventional warfare starting in the 1945-1950's.but i'm open to debate about this. |
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